Reflective Parenting by Curious Neuron

Why meaningful friendships are important for parental well-being with Dr. Miriam Kirmayer

• Cindy Hovington, Ph.D. • Season 8 • Episode 6

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Dr. Miriam Kirmayer, clinical psychologist and friendship expert, joins Cindy to discuss the profound impact of friendships on our psychological well-being and how we can cultivate meaningful connections despite the challenges of parenthood.

Here is what we discussed:
• Social connections are one of the most powerful predictors of health, happiness, and longevity
• The "over-under" phenomenon: we overestimate the effort relationships take and underestimate their benefits
• Loneliness during parenthood is normal and serves as a signal of our need for connection
• Even brief interactions (10 minutes) with friends can significantly impact our overall happiness
• Different friendships serve different purposes – identify which ones provide restoration versus maintenance
• Self-reflection helps determine which relationships align with your values and current needs
• Vulnerability and imperfection create stronger connections than projecting a perfect image
• Friendship skills are actually a constellation of different abilities that develop throughout life
• Workplace connections are powerful drivers of wellbeing, productivity, and organizational success
• When we prioritize our friendships, we model for our children that relationships are worth investing in

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Learn more from Dr. Kirmayer:

https://www.miriamkirmayer.com/

https://www.instagram.com/miriamkirmayer/


Learn more about psychological well-being:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8989714/pdf/nihms-1737166.pdf

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Speaker 1:

Hello, my dear friend, welcome to another episode of the Reflective Parenting Podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host. I am a mom of three from Montreal, canada, and I have a PhD in neuroscience. I'm the founder and CEO of Curious Neuron and my goal here, through the work that I do at Curious Neuron and this podcast, is to bring a set of skills to parents that I think many of us never learned, and by learning them, I think that life can be a little bit easier. Emotion regulation skills is a part of emotional intelligence, and if we can learn how to become self-aware, understanding where we need to do the work on ourselves, and if we can understand how to regulate our emotions, and if we can build even stronger and better relationships in our lives and learn how to become more attuned with our kids, all of that leads to life feeling a little less overwhelming and a little less stressful and a little more happy, and so I try to bring the science to you and experts and conversations that I have, as well as solo episodes, to help you build all of these skills and increase your awareness, and my goal also with all of this is that we improve your well-being and also boost your confidence, because I think that there are enough parenting advice platforms, which is what I had focused on before, and what I was hearing from parents is we are hearing information from left and right, yet we're not confident, we're still struggling, and in fact, there's so much out there that I, as a parent, am starting to doubt myself. I don't know if I'm doing it right, and so I want you to have that confidence and I want parenting to feel good for you.

Speaker 1:

I have a very special guest today and we're going to be talking about friendships again and connection and the importance of that. I know that we spoke about that recently in an episode, but I just have to emphasize how important this topic is and how significant it contributes or how much of a significant contributor it is to our psychological well-being. I'm going to share an article with you in just a second that I went and reached out to Dr Marion Kermeyer andI really admire her work and love her work, and so I thought it would be important to dig deeper into this conversation of the importance of connection, friendships and really supporting our well-being and psychological well-being in that way. Before we do so, as always, I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute and the McConnell Foundation. Both of these organizations support the Reflective Parenting Podcast, and so I'm grateful that we have their support, because to these organizations, sharing science is really important, and here for me, throughout the Curious Neuron platform, including this podcast, it is just so important for me to bring the science to you and to make it digestible and understandable for you so that it's simple enough for you to apply in your home. I don't want to tell you how to parent. I want to share the science so that you can feel good about how you are parenting.

Speaker 1:

If you haven't done so yet, please take a moment to review or rate the podcast. If this is your first time, then wait till the end of the episode, but if you've been listening to a few episodes, I can't emphasize how important it is for you to actually take the time to review or rate the podcast, or at least to make sure that you are subscribed to the podcast. If you haven't clicked subscribe and you aren't getting the automatic updates, then do so right now, because these are metrics that lead to these platforms boosting how often they show it to you. How often they show it to you, and so if more people are subscribing and more people are leaving ratings and reviews, then the platforms that we post our podcasts on will say, hey, I think people like this podcast and they're going to show it to more people as these numbers grow and the metrics improve. Then that is how I get the funding. Without these metrics, the funding is not going to come back, and so it's really important for you.

Speaker 1:

If you truly love the podcast and I know you do, because when I changed the title of this podcast from Curious Neuron to the Reflective Parenting Podcast, the title of my email that I sent out to the newsletter was Goodbye, curious Neuron Podcast. And I got some emails from some of you saying, no, don't let the podcast leave. And it wasn't that it was ending, it was truly because I was changing the title of it to reflect the direction of where we're going with this in terms of Kirsten Ron, and so I know that some of you I hope that those people that emailed me have at least rated the podcast or made sure that they're subscribed. So friendships is an interesting topic, and not just friendships, but connection. I wanted to reflect on this.

Speaker 1:

So, as you know, last year we launched the Reflective Parenting Club and this past week our Tuesday call, so I meet with parents every single Tuesday. I want parents to have this platform or this community where they can show up authentically as themselves and say, hey, I'm struggling with this. It's not just about parenting advice Actually, that's a smaller portion of it but if you're a parent that feels overwhelmed and feeling stressed all the time or feeling defeated, like maybe I'm messing everything up and I don't know what I'm doing, the Reflective Parent Club is for you, truly a space where we talk about different topics every single Tuesday. You can join at 12 pm Eastern time or 8 pm Eastern time, and last week we spoke about friendships and we reflected a little bit about what that looked like for us.

Speaker 1:

There was a mom who brought up, or she questioned how have you navigated friendships? This is a new mom and she felt that she was seeing some friendships kind of dissipate and people weren't reaching out anymore, some friends that didn't have kids yet. And not only that, that maintaining friendships felt like a lot of work and we're consuming some of the energy that she had, because you're trying to message people and trying to get together with them and that takes energy, and so I thought it would be really important to reflect on that inside with our members, and we did and we evaluated some aspects of friendships. So the questions we were asking ourselves and reflecting on is or were, which aspects of my friendships my current friendships are nurturing my well-being, are feeling supportive and adding to my, you know, mental health and well-being, and which aspects of my friendships are doing the opposite? And then, once we kind of reflected on that and I encourage you to do the same we then looked at well, we questioned what do I need from the friendships that I have that I am not intentionally asking for or trying to get?

Speaker 1:

And the reason why I wanted parents to reflect on this is because I feel that sometimes, especially if we're somebody that's a people pleaser or we don't want to put our needs onto somebody else's back or shoulders or, you know, a lot of us are like that then I feel that sometimes we have great friendships because the person is kind to us and very caring and we give our all to them. We would do anything for this person, this friend, but then we don't ask them for things that we might need. We don't say, hey, I really need to speak to you once a week, what's the best time that I can call you, or we don't say I have some moments where I'm really, really down. Would it be okay if I messaged you? I don't want to burden you with that, but when's the best time for me to message you? Or are you okay with us having coffee Saturday mornings for one hour? Maybe not every Saturday, but I'd love to get out of the house and I'm a new parent and I really need to schedule this in my calendar, right?

Speaker 1:

Think about that right now. How often have you asked a friend for something, knowing that that was a need that you had? But if they were to do the same to us, if they were to turn around and say, hey, I really need you to get me out of my house every week, could you, can you take an hour or every other week, right? Or just call me a little bit more often? Would that be okay? If they would say that to us, we would be there in a snap, right?

Speaker 1:

And so I really want you to reflect on the quality of your friendships, not just the people themselves, but within that one person, there might be some not good and bad, but things that are supportive for us and aspects of this friendship that are not, and it's okay to say I really care about this friend, but this aspect of this friendship is overwhelming, consuming, and I don't think I can continue that way. And if, actually, if I don't set any boundaries now and I ignore this part of the friendship, I might end up building resentment towards this person or distance myself. And so if this is truly a friendship that I want to nurture and keep in my life, I need to speak up about the parts of this friendship that I'm not happy with or that I feel that are draining right, and that is not easy. And so if you have a journal, if you have a curious neuron journal or a reflective parenting journal, I really encourage you to write about this or think about this just for a few minutes.

Speaker 1:

This week I'm also going to post in the show notes an article written by Dr D Reif, and Dr Reif is the pioneer of the psychological well-being research, and in this article she talks the title is Contributions of Eudaimonic Well-Being to Mental Health Practice. I'm really happy that I said that word without making a mistake. So I really love her work and, in terms of psychological well-being, her research has highlighted six domains or components of our well-being Environmental mastery, purpose in life, self-acceptance, personal growth, autonomy and positive relationships. So let's just sit with that for a moment and remind ourselves that having positive relationships you don't need 35 friendships or 100, right One, or at least you and your partner, you and a parent, you and a sibling, you and a friend. Revisiting these relationships and making sure that they are positive will support our well-being, and so it's a domain, it's one sixth of our well-being and we have to remember that it's important. So what I'm going to do in the next solo episode is I'm going to cover psychological well-being and the science of psychological well-being, because it reminds us about one thing, and the best way for me to remind you about this and this is also a preview of what I'll talk about in the solo episode that's coming up is in Carol Reif's article. She says Aristotle believed the answer was happiness to our psychological well-being, but he saw notable differences in what is meant by happiness.

Speaker 1:

In his view, happiness was not about pleasure or wealth or satisfying appetites, things aligned with Hedonia, also of interest to the ancient Greeks. Instead, instead, he defined the highest good as activity of the soul in accord with virtue. It was about achieving the best that is within us. The view of Eudaimonia as personal excellence is beautifully captured by the two Greek imperatives inscribed on the temple of Apollo at Delphi, namely to know thyself and become who you are. That is a bit of foreshadowing of the solo that is to come, but it just it's about our happiness and it touches on our psychological well-being, and so, without further ado, I do want to introduce you to our guest today Again, because we are talking about friendships and connection and the important role that this plays in our well-being and how we can navigate these to have stronger connections and relationships.

Speaker 1:

Dr Miriam Kermeyer is a clinical psychologist, leading friendship expert. Dr Miriam Kermeyer is a clinical psychologist, leading friendship expert and one of the most influential speakers on human connection and social support. With over a decade of research on the science of friendship, dr Miriam is revolutionizing the way we show up for mentor and connect with each other. I'm so excited that I was able to have this conversation with her and I know that you will enjoy it just as much as I did. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr Miriam Kiermaier. Hello everyone, welcome back to the Reflective Parenting Podcast. I'm Cindy and, as promised, I'm here with Dr Miriam Kiermaier. Welcome.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1:

I'm so glad to be here. I'm so excited for this talk because a couple of weeks ago we had had somebody on our podcast to talk about connection and friendships and it was somebody had written a book saying that after the pandemic, connections and friendships kind of dwindled and it was easy to let those go. And parents that were listening to the podcast said you know what I really related to that and that's why I really wanted to have the conversation with you and kind of go deeper, which is what your expertise is. So let's start by getting to know you a little bit. I'm always curious to know how somebody got to where they are today. Right, like it's not just your education and background, but what led to you speaking about friendships and connection the way that you do today.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely Well. There's a bit of a joke in the world of psychology or psychological research that you kind of study what you know, or you study what you experience and are naturally curious about. And that is certainly the case for me, although it's only really become clear in hindsight. And so, thinking back, just personally, a lot of the most meaningful moments of my life have been those that I've shared with friends. Thinking back to summer camp and how special those memories were taking trips with friends in early adulthood, just all those little moments of inside jokes and the relationships that I built with friends during graduate school those have all been very important to me and, at the same time, noticing that at so many of those key junctures in life and those key transition points, friendships are really challenged.

Speaker 2:

And it's a truism that the moments when we need other people the most are often when those relationships are most difficult to invest in and to maintain. And so, yeah, looking back, I can totally see how various experiences have led me down this road. But, professionally speaking, I really got into this through the research that I was doing just prior to graduate school, where I was looking at children's peer relationships and looking at different types of pro-social behavior collaboration, sharing and whatnot and also anti-social behavior looking at lie-telling and bullying and that really led to this interest in peer relationships and friendships in particular. And then, when I started working clinically, it became very clear to me that adults were also really struggling to build and maintain friendships, and so I really wanted to understand that better empirically and also find ways to support people in building healthier platonic relationships at home and at work.

Speaker 1:

It's so important, and I think of parents in particular, where you know, we think of the friendships we had before, kids, the. You know the quality might have changed or the quantity might have changed, you know, in terms of how many friendships we have now as parents. And sometimes it's really hard because, as you know somebody with three kids, myself you have your best, closest friend that you probably see every two, three months, right, and that's the one you're actually putting the time and the work into. But then there's other people you enjoy being around but then they go to. You know you don't really take the effort or put the effort into kind of building and maintaining that relationship. So I'd love to know.

Speaker 1:

Actually, you mentioned something that I want to get to first so that we can make our way to parents, but you mentioned children and I just want to understand that a little bit more, because I think it's ironic or kind of interesting that as parents we put so much pressure on our kids. They're at the park and like go make a friend, and they're like the little push on their back go, go, go make a friend, go talk to them. Meanwhile we're sitting on our phones and we're not talking to the person beside us. Can we acknowledge that for one little second? And then I want to work our way to us as parents. But in terms of childhood, it's not something that comes natural, I'm assuming.

Speaker 2:

No, I mean, I so love that you're calling this out and calling us out and this is so important. You are very right and this is something I see time and time again that it is difficult to make friends, to navigate. Friendship challenges at any age lives in their well-being, in their development, in their growth, in their frankly, success and kind of whole personhood. And because of that, parents and teachers and this whole circle of support that surrounds our children, we are all very motivated to help youth build better friendships. We are open about how important that is. We are giving that gentle nudge on the playground to get them to go and approach someone. We're talking about how important it is to share and again collaborate.

Speaker 2:

We get our kids into extracurricular activities. Yes, of course, to build skills, but also to build relationships, and one of the challenges is that the older we get, the more difficult it becomes to make and maintain friendships, because, of course, we're short on time, but also there just is less of an explicit awareness of how crucial those friendships really are and we don't have the same types of systems of support in place to find new ways to connect, to meet new people, and we need to be much more intentional about doing so. We need to be much more intentional about putting our phone down and instead shifting our attention to that fellow parent on the playground than we often are, and it takes skills right.

Speaker 1:

It's not just about being an introvert or an extrovert, but there are skills involved, I find, find, in learning how to build that relationship or start it right. Like I am personally an introvert, so I'd rather I'll smile at you, but if you say hi, I'll talk to you, but I am not the one who's gonna take the first step but I'll smile, but it's so hard sometimes to know how to do that, or even small talk. There's a skill behind that that's really uncomfortable for some of us. So how about we work through or walk through the different skills, right? Because I'm thinking of, even during a relationship, learning how to set boundaries.

Speaker 1:

In all honesty, I think I learned how to set boundaries in my late 30s. I don't think I knew how to do that, and the more I learned how to set boundaries, then some friendships kind of dwindled and I let those go because of the boundaries I set and because of the values. They weren't meeting my values anymore. And I let those go because of the boundaries I set and because of the values. They weren't meeting my values anymore and I got to know myself, which allowed me to build stronger relationships, but fewer. So how do we begin? I guess the path in terms of you know, as an adult, maybe we can start with that Like just the quality of a friendship, right, like how do we work on that? Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Well, you touched on so many important points there. I want to come back to one of the first things that you said, which was talking about this as a skill, and what I really like to say is that, whether we're talking about building a new friendship or navigating conflict, or setting boundaries in a friendship or letting go of a friendship, really friendship skills are a collection and a constellation of skills, it isn't just one thing, and part of why that's so important is because I hear this narrative over and over again. Of well, not only is it so challenging to make and maintain friendships as an adult, but I'm not good at it. I'm just not good at adult friendship, and I can promise everyone listening to this that that is not true, that there are so many different skills and different experiences that go into managing and maintaining those relationships, that, sure, there may be certain skills or certain situations that you struggle with or that where you feel less comfortable, but there are absolutely others that you are excelling at, and this just comes so naturally that you might not be as aware of. And so, for you, you mentioned being a little bit more introverted, and maybe we can even talk about the difference in terms of introversion and extroversion and the role that plays in friendships.

Speaker 2:

But you gave this great example of I will smile at you on the playground and really what that is.

Speaker 2:

That's a bid for connection, right?

Speaker 2:

There's an awareness that you have in that moment of yourself and of your desire, perhaps, to feel a little connected and not only be staring at your phone or to focus entirely on your child.

Speaker 2:

So there's that self-awareness of what is my need. There's that taking in of information, who's around me. There's the recognition of well, how can I signal to this person that I'm open, perhaps, to a conversation and the appropriate selection of the strategy of a smile? And so every one of those points is a different skill and a different friendship experience, and there will be again moments of that that we find a little bit more challenging and others that are very helpful, and the person on the receiving end of that might have no difficulty striking up a conversation and engaging in small talk, but that initial step of wondering who do I talk to, who might be open, how do I signal that I'm open to chatting with somebody, that might be more challenging for them. And so it really is this constellation of skills and this give and take that we really need to be mindful of, both in terms of our own experience and in negotiating with other people.

Speaker 1:

Right, I love that you've painted that picture of the constellations because it reminds us it's not just that one skill and it's not linear. Also, right, it's not like I have it, I'm going to build towards it. There's so much that goes into that.

Speaker 2:

Yes, oh my gosh, I love that point that you just made on on it being linear, because this is another really interesting theme that comes up in my work.

Speaker 2:

There are different trajectories that people experience when it comes to their friendships and relationships, for that matter. As adults and and I certainly have supported people in my therapy practice and know people personally for whom friendships have always been a little bit more challenging, that it was difficult to find those right people to connect with them, to kind of embrace the vulnerability that's needed to build those friendships and that persisted from childhood throughout adulthood. And there are others for whom, as a child, as a teen, maybe you had a lot of confidence, maybe you felt like you had all the skills at your disposal to build new friendships and to maintain them, and, for all sorts of reasons, when you become an adult, when you enter into adulthood and our modern world, it's all of a sudden very difficult, and that catches people off guard. And so there isn't just one uh, one experience or one right experience, and each of those trajectories can have their own challenges, because when you are caught off guard, it becomes very destabilizing as well and you're not quite sure. Well, why isn't this linear I.

Speaker 2:

I had no trouble when I was younger. Why is it suddenly so challenging? What's wrong with me?

Speaker 1:

people really personalize that as well I'm glad that you kind of went deeper into that, because I think of the parents I speak with, mostly new parents, new moms that just had their first child and now they're not at work. So you're not seeing the friends from work. You're not seeing your friends because they're not on maternity leave. Maybe you're lucky that you have one and now they're joining maybe these groups right, these new mom groups or these parent groups, and they're trying. There might be a sense. You know, you mentioned confidence.

Speaker 1:

I think that's a big part of it and that introvert or extrovert. Maybe it's a good time to kind of talk about that, because I feel that our inner dialogue sometimes takes over and you're like, oh, why should I talk to them? I'm not really interesting, all I do is go home and feed a child and I have nothing to talk about. And what's the point? And you get stuck in this cycle in your mind and I think that sort of is a wall to kind of move forward and make those friendships. What advice would you give to somebody who feels that and we can even touch the science around this but the not having friendships is impacting their wellbeing at this point? There's a loneliness to becoming a new parent. How do we navigate that?

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, there's, there's so much richness in what you just shared there. Yes, I mean, uh, you know, I'm I'm a mother to two little boys and motherhood is wonderful and challenging and exciting and also incredibly lonely, like I think back to those early days, those very long, uh dark, uh quiet or not so quiet nights, and then you're exhausted the next day and you just want to be around people that you also don't want to be around people and you're too tired, and yet you're around someone all the time who's right there next to you, and yet that isn't necessarily the connection that you are needing in that moment either. And so it is a very lonely time in a lot of ways, and it also doesn't have to be. And so part of this link in terms of our relationships and sense of connectedness, or loneliness and wellbeing and confidence, really for me is, first and foremost, normalizing that certain life experiences can be lonely and, in fact, certain very positive life experiences can bring with them a sense of loneliness becoming a parent, sure, moving cities for a new exciting opportunity, getting promoted at work and suddenly no longer having again that circle of colleagues who are your peers and at the same level. These really positive life experiences can still be lonely, and when we are caught off guard, that often brings with it uncertainty and confusion and shame.

Speaker 2:

And so normalizing that loneliness happens and that, in fact, those feelings of loneliness are not the problem.

Speaker 2:

They're a signal.

Speaker 2:

They're there to remind us of our need for connection, because without that signal, it would be very easy to say, oh well, I'm just going to cocoon myself at home and not reach out to my friends, not try to make new friends with other new parents, and ideally, what we want to do is normalize our feelings of loneliness, treat ourselves with a tremendous amount of self-compassion, which ultimately sounds like speaking to yourself the way you would a friend, and asking yourself what is this feeling trying to tell me what is the unmet need that I have?

Speaker 2:

Is it that I do want to go out and make new friends because the people that I have right now don't necessarily get what I'm going through, or our schedules don't align? Or do I really want to call one of my old friends to reconnect and be reminded of who I am outside of my role as a parent, be reminded of all of the things that I actually do have going on and want to talk about and have nothing to do with parenthood, and so there's no right or wrong answer to that. But asking the question of what is this emotion, what is this feeling trying to tell me, can be very helpful and very motivating when accompanied with self-compassion, not shame.

Speaker 1:

That self-compassion piece is also the hardest for some parents and adults not just parents right, we're so quick to give our friend this advice and to say, like it's okay, like you know, you made a mistake and we all make mistakes but then we're not as kind and gentle to ourselves when we do the same thing. So the self-compassion piece I know for so many parents, listening is is a hard piece. But I love that you've brought that into the friendship aspect because I would never have thought about it that way.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely yeah. That question, that simple question of what would I say to a friend in this moment, or what do I wish a friend would say to me. It sounds so simple and yet rarely again do we take the time to be so explicit in terms of monitoring our self-talk and thinking about how we can shift things ever so slightly so that not only do we feel perhaps a little bit better in that moment, but also better equipped to do something about our unwell needs.

Speaker 1:

I get that when a parent is kind of at their lowest point or really struggling, it could feel like I just don't have the energy or the time to give that to a friendship, right To build a friendship and nurture that friendship. I'm already struggling at home with my kids. I'm struggling with balancing work and home and maintaining a healthy relationship with my own partner left for that friendship. Knowing the impact of friendships on well-being and knowing the research around that, Maybe we can touch on a little bit of that to kind of express and share why it would be so important to place some of the energy on that.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely Well. This is really interesting because it brings up a miscalculation that we often make. We know that we often overestimate the amount of effort that goes into connecting with others and we underestimate how much we appreciate this and how much we value this and how much we frankly benefit from this. And so this is what I like to call the over-under. It's this miscalculation that we make, and what happens is, when we do that cost-benefit analysis, we often decide, well, better off just staying home, better off just resting and catching up on the latest Netflix reality series that I'm watching? Right, and sometimes, sure, we do need time alone. We do need time at home.

Speaker 2:

We can't always be on, especially true for people who are a little bit more introverted, but also true for extroverts.

Speaker 2:

We cannot always push ourselves to be with other people.

Speaker 2:

And yet very often the default especially in parenthood, when we are so focused on giving to others and balancing so much the default is to lean too heavily into the perceived cost side of things.

Speaker 2:

And what happens is we start to believe that spending time with friends, reaching out to friends, not only is that effortful, but that it will come at the cost of something else, that it will come at the cost of my relationship with my child, my partner, my work, my personal health and well-being, my goals, and very often what we see anecdotally and through research, frankly, is that when you invest in your need for connection, virtually every other area of your life is positively impacted.

Speaker 2:

When you feel better supported by your friends, your home life satisfaction is boosted, and not only that, your partner's home life satisfaction is boosted. There's this spillover and this crossover, and so if we can again correct or just be mindful of some of those miscalculations that can be motivating and I also really caution against assuming that you will necessarily feel wholly ready and motivated and that all discomfort will just float out the window once you start to notice those thought patterns that if you are someone who again perhaps is a little bit more introverted, or if it's been a while since you've socialized, or if you're just not feeling that great in yourself in that moment, it will take time and it will take ongoing effort to move through that discomfort, and so it involves a fairly high level of trust, trust in self, that this is worth it and that I will reap the benefits and that when that kicks in, I'll be stuck in this much more positively motivating cycle.

Speaker 1:

It makes me think of. I spoke with this palliative care doctor and she was saying that there's a difference between rest and restoration for us. And she gave the analogy of a bathtub, where when you just do nothing and you sit back and you say I'm going to watch that Netflix series all weekend, that's like plugging the water from draining, that's putting the drain so the water doesn't drain out of the bathtub and that's just maintaining the energy that you have left, versus connection, which is like filling up some fresh new water in that bathtub. And I feel the difference. Now that I have that visual, I see it when I go out with my friend Christina I need to say her name because she knows she's listening and she is the one who, if I had a really hard week and she's like we're supposed to go out today and I'm like I don't know, I don't feel like it, she'll be like no, no, I'll.

Speaker 1:

It's better to get out of your funk to see her, like to see somebody. We don't have to have a big night right, just like 10, I know, not 10 minutes, but like an hour.

Speaker 2:

Well, absolutely, and in fact you're touching on a lot of things in there. So first of all, kudos to Christina for being fresh bath water.

Speaker 1:

I love that.

Speaker 2:

What a good friend, but you're touching on a few important things, which is that it also actually doesn't take that much to reap the benefits. Yes, of course, having prolonged quality time is wonderful and something so many of us yearn for when we feel like there isn't the opportunity to spend that quality time with our friends. And yet we know from research that all it takes is one phone call a day, one check-in that maybe you mentioned 10 minutes yeah, it can be 10 minutes, or even just under that. That actually has a measurable impact on our overall level of happiness and well-being and health, frankly. And so if you can start to also challenge some of the ideas that you have about it needing to take so much time, that you have so far to go in terms of building in social connection, well, that opens up the door for these micro moments of connection that are very impactful.

Speaker 2:

And thinking about Christina and this idea of the fresh bath water, I will also say there's a. This idea of the fresh bath water, I will also say there's a. I come back to this idea of self-reflection and introspection and of being really mindful of how you feel when you spend time with different friends and can you take some ownership and accountability over who you reach out to, because maybe some friends are the plug in the bathtub and that's not a bad thing. There are people that we need to be able to connect with and be with, and they don't deplete us oh, we need to talk about that but they don't necessarily fill us back up, and so, being mindful of who does that for you and what state you are in, that can bring a lot more intentionality to your friendships and ultimately lead to much greater levels of relationship, closeness and overall feelings of connectedness.

Speaker 1:

Can we dig a little deeper into that, because I think that that's something we don't know enough about or we don't take the time to reflect on enough, right? So one thing that comes to mind are our values, right? So we have a program called the Reflective Parent Club and we, from the beginning of this program, people have to assess their values, and I do this because I think that we forget what our values are, and we forget that when we're in an environment whether it's a work environment or with a friend or a family member or someone, when they are not aligned, sometimes we feel like we're drained and we can't really pinpoint why. It might not just be the values, there might be a lot more. So how do we reflect on that? If we come back from an event with a friend and we don't feel like that's fresh backwater, how do we start to think about okay, maybe that's not the friendship I need in my life right now. So how do we do the assessment on ourselves?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely so. It's not a one and done. There's the number one piece of advice that I give that there will be ups and downs in relationships and there will be moments where you just aren't connecting in the way that you normally do, and very often those one-offs have a lot less to do with your friendship and a lot more to do with something going on in either or both of your lives. You are tired.

Speaker 2:

You are stressed, you are distracted, you are worried or preoccupied. It might not have anything to do with how you feel about the person that's sitting in front of you, so I always encourage people to pay attention to patterns. How do you feel typically after spending time with this person? Looking at the long arc of your friendship, how do you feel when you spend time together in the moment? Does time drag on and does it feel like it's a really really long 10 minutes? Or does it fly by and you just can't wait for your next 10 minute check-in? Or you wish you could spend an hour, two or three together?

Speaker 2:

And I also think a big tell is how do you feel when you see them calling or when their name pops up in your inbox or in your text messages. Do you get excited? Do you feel neutral? Do you feel dread? That can be an important tell in terms of how you feel, not only about that person, because you might still really appreciate that person and who they are but how you feel about the role that that friendship plays in your life in that moment. And so starting to pay attention to patterns is a big piece of it.

Speaker 1:

That's, I think, such a great place to start, because maybe in the moment something's happening with you, maybe you're struggling with your own mental health or a relationship and you're just putting so much energy into it that you're not getting the same from that relationship right Versus. If you look at the patterns, you might say it was okay before. Maybe I'll get back to that when I'm better. But I'm wondering also if the other person is going through something.

Speaker 1:

I'm thinking of a friend who might always see the negative in something and you're like oh it's really draining, like I love this person, they're so kind and they think about me and they're very empathetic and compassionate and they're a great person. But for the past I don't know X amount of months it's just been draining to be with them because of what they're going through. How do we approach that sort of situation, knowing that it might just be a moment for them but it's just draining for us? Do we set a boundary or do we say, like it's not for me?

Speaker 2:

anymore Absolutely Well. There's no one right way to respond in, frankly, most interpersonal situations right. There's so many contextual details, there's so much friendship history and relationship history that will inform what we see as possible, what we want to do, what we ultimately choose to do. Yes, boundaries can certainly be a part of it, and there's interpersonal boundaries where we are communicating something to the other person. There's also a sense of personal boundaries that maybe the other person doesn't even have to know about, right? And so some of the things that I have found to be helpful again thinking about my own life and also in supporting clients and working, even in professional spaces where these kinds of experiences come up is, uh, so, being mindful of the place that you are in, or the, or this, the space or the place that you are in when you interact with this friend. So maybe you are checking in with yourself and and assessing your own, uh, mindset and emotional well-being before determining whether you are going to accept that phone call or pick up the phone and check in, and that you only speak with that friend when you are in a place where you can receive that in a way that doesn't feel depleting, because maybe at the end of a very long workday when you are so tired and after you've finished putting your kids to bed for the last hour plus. Maybe that's not the time when you have the emotional resources available to support your friend or to just receive this yourself, and so maybe that's a morning check-in. Sometimes it's a matter of frequency, so maybe it matters less when you are connecting, but how often, and there may be a world in which you're able to modify that very gently over time. So those types of boundaries can be helpful, and there may also come a point where you decide that you want to say something, you want to address the situation, and I find when you can come from a place of curiosity and, again, compassion, those are the conversations that are going to be most helpful, and this is probably not going to be a surprise to many of your listeners who are familiar, right, with a lot of this language and a lot of these strategies.

Speaker 2:

But instead of putting the blame on a friend and making it a character assassination in some way of you are always so negative, you are unable to see the bright side. You are just so draining right to see the bright side. You are just so draining right. You can check in and instead focus on what you are experiencing and express a real desire to understand what they are experiencing, and so that might sound something like you know, I've noticed in a lot of our conversations that it's really important for me that you feel supported and I get the sense that you're going through a really hard time, and I want to better understand what it's been like for you, but also better understand what our conversations have been like for you, because I'm starting to wonder or feel like I'm not in the best place to support you or that what I'm doing isn't working, and I want to make sure that you are finding our conversations helpful.

Speaker 2:

How can we work together to figure that out? And from there you are much more likely to have a constructive conversation where you can share a little bit of what your perception is without putting the blame entirely on them.

Speaker 1:

I love that. That's such good advice and I think we can use it for any kind of relationship, friendship, relationships.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1:

I get that.

Speaker 1:

We kind of touched on before in terms of, like the self-care, the guilt I think we said at some point.

Speaker 1:

But I know that lots of parents, mostly moms, feel that leaving you mentioned, you know, like the, if we leave our home or we're putting something to the side our children, our partners, whatever it is and there's a guilt that comes around with that right, and especially when we're new parents. I remember the first time I went out for dinner with Christina after having my first kid, it was like what am I doing? I'm the worst parent, how can I do this? And in the end it just the reward and the motivation of coming back home and just feeling like a fresh parent, like everything is all the worries I had are gone. So I know that it's important. But what can you share with parents who might be struggling right now, with one partner saying I don't see value in friendships. I'm always home, but you go out all the time, even if all the time might be every month or other month? How do we start that conversation in our home with regards to the importance of friendships and how it impacts our well-being?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely Well.

Speaker 2:

There are a few things that are coming to mind there.

Speaker 2:

So we know that feeling connected to the people around us, to our partners, to our communities and especially to our friends, that this is actually one of the most powerful predictors of how healthy we are and how long we live.

Speaker 2:

And presumably not only parents, of course, but humans are interested in living longer and happier and healthier lives, right?

Speaker 2:

So the buy-in on that French, hopefully is not a hard sell, and this might not be all that counterintuitive, but what is surprising is the magnitude that, again, feeling connected to our friends and investing in our friendships is so very powerful far more than we expect, and it's on par with other things like how much we drink, what our eating patterns are, our genetics, and so that friendship piece really often needs to be centered not only in our conversations but in our actions, and so, for anyone listening who might be in this situation, you know, the first thing that I want to share is that you are touching on and tapping into something that is very meaningful, right. You are touching on and tapping into something that is very meaningful, right, and that we all differ too. There's a universality there of this is important for all of us, but we also all differ in terms of what our need for connection is, what our baseline levels are, the amount of connection that we need to feel satisfied and secure.

Speaker 1:

Even how we connect, because I think about my partner and I, my husband. He'll text friends and he'll be like that's great, I'm done Versus I'm like, no, I need to go have a coffee or something. I need to see them and hug them. So there's a difference.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and and I'm going to talk more about that but, but I do think that this idea of um recognizing that your partner might have different needs than you do, that that's helpful on both ends, sure, and is a necessary step to again establishing some type of an understanding, and, at the same time, the conversation often tends to be focused on individual experience of what do I need, what are you doing, what is my partner doing?

Speaker 2:

I mean, this brings up all sorts of issues of fairness and equality, too.

Speaker 2:

Right, that are such themes in partnerships that are very important, and so I think all of that is worth us talking about and couples talking about, and the piece that often gets missed, though, is the impact that prioritizing your own connections has on your child and on your child's wellbeing, and I mean there's all sorts of helpful ideas and language around filling up your own cup before you know, taking care of someone else, and the importance of self-care and kind of being a stable, safe, sustainable parent.

Speaker 2:

Right, and, though, it's not only about being able to take care of others, that when you prioritize your friendship, you are sending the message to your child that friendship is worth investing in, and that is something that will stick with them for their life. When you are modeling what it looks like, what it sounds like to call a friend and initiate plans, when you are open about the discomfort that you might feel or the discomfort that you might feel or the vulnerability that you might feel when making a new friend, it normalizes that for your child. And so there's so much of this that is about meeting your own need and also about being a supportive parent.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I want to be mindful of your time, but you just mentioned something so that'll ease your way out of this conversation. That's just so interesting. So thank you for your time. The vulnerability part, I think, is also very hard for many people I think of, sometimes like the surface aspect of the conversation. Right, it's like how's everything great, the kids are great, they're in this activity, they're doing well, and I know there must be different qualities of relationships, of friendships I'm assuming from what I see around myself too right, so there are those that you can really open up and say I'm not well, you know something's going on, I'm not sure why, but then there are those that everything is just fine and life goes on. You have your coffee. How, if you struggle with first of all, should we be doing that? Should we have those different levels? Are there those different levels that I'm assuming there are? And secondly, if we struggle with vulnerability, how do we slowly take the baby steps towards that when it's really hard for us?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely Well. I often talk about building a friendship by proxy, and so for a lot of parents, those early conversations on the playground or elsewhere might be about your children and might be about hey, it looks like we have children the same age how old is your son?

Speaker 1:

And that might be the hey, it looks like we have children the same age. How old is your son?

Speaker 2:

And that might be the first point of connection. It's an opening in terms of a conversation opener a little bit of parent small talk, right and it's also a way to find your connection point. It's a way to find your similarity in this thing that you share in common, and we know that similarity is often the root of friendship and that friends tend to be similar to each other and they tend to bond over their similarities, and those initial similarities don't have to be all that deep. It really can be as simple as oh look at that, we have kids the same age, or they go to the same school, or we live in a similar neighborhood, or we have a similar profession or a similar haircut. I mean it really. It doesn't necessarily matter all that much, as long as you establish that point of connection, and establish that point of connection early on.

Speaker 2:

What we know, though, is that the friendships that are likely to not only survive but thrive and be closer and of higher quality are those where you can move beyond that initial point of connection, and for parents, this is particularly important where you can move beyond the other, where the thing that you talk about isn't only someone else, isn't only your children, the good and the bad for that matter, because we can be very vulnerable when disclosing or talking about a challenge that our child is going through. It's true, yeah, and yet it's often far more powerful when we can also connect over how that might impact us or our own challenges that have nothing to do with our children. You can broaden the conversation and bring the focus back to you and, importantly, back to the other person, and express a real desire to know more about the other person. Those kinds of conversations again create such closer connections, and one of the things that I'll share, because I think it is so important, is that coming back to that idea of over and underestimating it is so important is that, coming back to that idea of over and underestimating, we very much underestimate how much people want to get to know us. We underestimate how much they want to hear the messy, imperfect parts of our lives, that they don't expect us to have everything together and that perfection is not a catalyst for connection whatsoever. It's not relatable, right.

Speaker 2:

And we also underestimate how much people like us and I share that not only so that hopefully listeners can get a bit of a confidence boost and know that when there's a parent on the playground that you know it's okay to approach them and say hi and smile, that there's a good chance they want to get to know you too.

Speaker 2:

But also because it is a helpful strategy to leverage too. But also because it is a helpful strategy to leverage If you can make it very clear that you like someone, if you can help to make it explicit and obvious that you want to get to know someone by saying not just asking a question, but by saying I've so enjoyed our conversation on the playground today. Right, I really like getting to know you. I love what you shared today. Let's do this again. When are you here next? If you can really make your liking clear, you can overstep what's called the liking gap, which is that tendency to underestimate how much people like us and, in turn, we like people who we think like us, and so you are much more likely to go on to create a closer connection.

Speaker 1:

I have this really big desire to run to the park now. I know it's full of snow, but I want to make a front. You've given me so much energy and I know that everybody listening must feel inspired from what you said. Thank you so much. I'm really curious. I know that you do work with companies. How does it work in terms of talking about connection and friendship inside work like places?

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:

Yes, so this is a particular area that I'm so excited about for all sorts of reasons.

Speaker 2:

It turns out that work is the primary space, first of all, where we make friends as adults, and so for most people, as you kind of alluded to in our conversation, that is the place where a lot of our social lives live, and the good news is that the research is very clear that having friends and feeling connected at work to our colleagues, to our leaders, to our managers, to our mentors and mentees, that that is again a very powerful force, not only for personal well-being and mental health and lowering our risk of burnout and all of the things that obviously, again, as individuals, we really care about.

Speaker 2:

It's a huge driver of collective and organizational success. It fuels retention and productivity and engagement and creativity and innovation, and so being able to yes, on the one hand, help people and organizations foster friendship at work is a huge benefit, but I'm also really interested and excited about sharing the principles, the science and psychology of friendship to strengthen the relationships that we have at work. How can we be better leaders so that we can help the people that we work with, cultivate closer connections with each other and drive the success of our teams as a whole.

Speaker 1:

I absolutely love the work that you do. Thank you so much. So if somebody wants to learn more from you or reach out to you, where can they reach you and what other? What do you have available in terms of support and courses and so on?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely Well. Thanks for asking and, again, I'd love to connect with anyone who's interested in this topic. Unsurprisingly, I love to chat and connect, whether it's small talk or something a little bit more meaningful. You don't have to wait till we run into each other on the playground, so the best thing to do is to either connect with me on social I'm most active on Instagram and LinkedIn, miriam Kermeyer and if you head to my website, miriamkermeyercom, I have lots of free resources available other podcast conversations, articles, interviews and I do have courses in my Confidently Connected series, where I help people build better friendships and relationships, both by strengthening their confidence and competence.

Speaker 1:

I will put all of those links in the show notes. I appreciate you so much. Thank you for being here and I hope we get to chat again soon. Thank you, cindy, looking forward to it. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Dr Miriam Kurmeier as much as I did. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast to leave a rating and review. Send me a screenshot if you leave a review, specifically, and I will send you Meltdown Mountain for free. Email me at info at CuriousNeuroncom and, by the way, our clinical integration program has begun.

Speaker 1:

And if you would like to bring Curious Neuron, so the parental well-being into your pediatric clinic, whether it's a physio clinic, occupational therapist or pediatric care, we are here to support the work that you are doing by supporting the parent while you take care of the child. And if you'd like to join the Reflective Parenting Club sorry, the Reflective Parent Club you can click the link in the show notes. Join me next Tuesday at our weekly calls in the show notes. Join me next Tuesday at our weekly calls. And if you want to join our next family meeting, which is when we include our children, we're going to be talking about emotions and how emotions sometimes get bigger and bigger and bigger, and what do we do about that? Why is it important for us to talk about our emotions to our parents? That is what we're going to be focusing on, and if you have a child who's three and older, there's going to be an activity for them.

Speaker 1:

That is all included in the Reflective Parenting Club, but if you want to join that one in particular alone, please make sure that you are on my newsletter or reach out to me at info at curiousjohncom, because between now and the end of the week I will be creating a link so that you can join just that one in particular to support your child's emotional development. I hope you all have a beautiful and lovely week. I'll see you next Monday. Bye.