Curious Neuron Podcast

Supporting emotional development through play with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson

• Cindy Hovington, Ph.D. • Season 7 • Episode 24

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The episode delves into the critical role of play in both parental and child emotional development. Tina Payne Bryson shares insights from her book, *The Way of Play*, emphasizing how engaging in playful interactions can foster emotional intelligence and resilience in children while helping parents regulate their own stress.

• Exploring the connection between play and emotional development
• Importance of parental emotional well-being
• Practical strategies for incorporating play into parenting
• Understanding play as a tool for resilience building
• The role of scaffolding in teaching emotional management
• Encouraging open conversations about feelings through play
• Modelling emotional regulation for children in real-life scenarios

Sources:

Get The Way of Play on Amazon in  Canada or Amazon in the US

Follow Dr. Bryson on Instagram

https://www.tinabryson.com/


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Speaker 1:

Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the Curious Neuron podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I'm your host. If you are on a self-awareness journey and you are also a parent, or if you're learning how to cope with your emotions, because perhaps you were not taught how to do that and now everything in life seems very stressful and overwhelming and has lots of big emotions for you as a parent, then this podcast is for you. I'm a mom of three from Montreal, canada, and I have a PhD in neuroscience. My specialty is around emotions and how to regulate emotions and how to manage and cope with emotions, as well as the stress that comes with parenting, and I do think that it's so important for parents to have this space that's just for themselves, because there are lots of parenting experts out there and I love all of them, but what we need is not more parenting advice. What we need is, as a parent, is someone to remind us that we still matter, that we still have needs and that we still have to attend to these needs, because if we do, then we will be able to show up for a child very differently, and so if that's something that's important for you, then welcome to Curious Neuron. You can learn more about what we're doing at curiousneuroncom. The website, by the way, is going through a huge revamp. By the end of the month, I'm hoping, or early March latest, the new website should be up and I'm really excited to share that with you. The podcast episodes that you are listening to now will be more easily searchable. So if you're a new person coming into this Curious Neuron community here on the podcast, stay tuned. Make sure you subscribe and join our mailing list by visiting our website or just getting the freebie on the first page of the website. That way you will get the update when it comes out, when the new website comes out, because you'll be able to more easily see what is out there in terms of old podcast episodes.

Speaker 1:

There have been some major changes in the past few weeks with Curisneron. Curisneron has always been a space where I've wanted to intentionally support parents Well, intentionally first, support emotional well-being First with your child. I switched it to focus just on the parent in the past couple of years, but now we are coming to pediatric clinics. So maybe you want Curious Neuron in your child's clinic. Then send me an email at info at curiousneuroncom, or maybe you area clinician yourself. I hadn't realized how many clinicians were listening to the podcast or on social media, because when I announced it on Instagram and LinkedIn, I got some emails. So I know that they are out there.

Speaker 1:

You are out there, but the partners that we are creating this sort of partnership with these pediatric clinics, what I believe is that we should have, when it comes to a child's healthcare, we should have parental wellbeing side by side with this, because if we only focus on the child's health care, we should have parental well-being side by side with this, because if we only focus on the child's health and well-being, we are forgetting that that adult beside them their caregiver and their parent if they are not well, then they will struggle to support their child, and the environment that that child will grow up in is going to be very different. And if we look at the research and all the stats, parental stress is up, burnout is up and all of that, as well as lots of struggles with children and their behavior. And so Curious Neuron wants to support that. That is my mission, and so if you would like Curious Neuron in your child's clinic or in your own clinic, send me an email at info at curiousneuroncom. I got a few people that left a rating and review this week for the podcast and I sent them Meltdown Mountain and a little bonus as well. So if you haven't done so yet and you've been listening to this podcast, if you want me to keep bringing bigger guests I've sent out emails to people that just they're too popular for us. We need to have bigger numbers for them, and so I want to bring the guests that are going to help you nurture your needs as a parent.

Speaker 1:

Today is one of those really special guests that I'm just so grateful that she not only came at the beginning and trusted me, but she came back, and the conversation that Tina and I had was one that I will cherish for a very long time. I respect her work so much. Today's guest is Tina Payne Bryson, and her new book, the Way of Play, is a book that we all need to have on our shelves. I'm not just saying that. I know I've been saying that a lot with many books that I've been reading. There are so many good books coming out, but every single one of Tina's is the one that we have them all on our shelf. Turn around and look at your bookshelf. I'm sure you have one up there, so don't miss my conversation with her. It's coming up. It's a little longer than most conversations, but I needed to make sure that I got in all my questions so that you can have the answers to this and start implementing many of these tips today in your home.

Speaker 1:

Before we begin, as always, I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute, as well as the McConnell Foundation, for supporting the Curious Neuron podcast. The reason why they're supporting us is because I believe in the importance of sharing science with parents. The people I reach out to are science-based, just like Tina Payne Bryson, and I want you to have this very important information so that you can bring it into your home and see how it fits best within the way that you are parenting your child. And so today is one of those examples, and if you want this podcast to continue, please take a moment to rate the podcast and leave a review. You can then email me at info at CuriousNeuroncom and I will send you Meltdown Mountain.

Speaker 1:

So if you have a young child that really struggles and gets really big emotions very quickly, this visual, this PDF that comes with a guide and a visual that you can print, is what I've used with my kids and what I'm training and supporting parents inside our program called the Reflective Parent Club to support their child in understanding that sometimes emotions we kind of like walk slowly up Meltdown Mountain and so we see it coming, and that's the self-awareness piece around emotional intelligence. But sometimes we jump into a rocket ship and we make our way up meltdown mountain all the way to the top, and when we're at the top we are dysregulated and so we need support to come back down the mountain. Having this language with your child is what will help them develop their emotional regulation skills. But first you need to have that language for yourself, and that is the whole point of the program that we've created called the Reflective Parent Club. I used to refer to it as a membership. I've stopped that. It is a three-month program, but we are doing the same thing and I want you to have access to me weekly where you say hey, cindy, this is what happened to me this week. I didn't know how to approach this or I reacted this way. How do I react differently? I meet with you every single week for an hour. Three months, that's 12 hours of personal time inside these group calls where you can get support to build self-awareness and learn how to cope with emotions and stress all for $99. But now, if you do want to join, you have to click the link and take an appointment with me, a meeting with me, 15 minutes, to make sure that it's the right fit for you. All right, I don't want to keep you waiting.

Speaker 1:

Tina Payne Bryson, in case you have not heard of her before, is an international speaker to parents, educators, camps, clinicians. She's the author of Bottom Line for Baby and co-author with Dan Siegel of two New York best-selling books called the Whole Brain Child and no Drama Discipline. I also love another one of her books, the Power of Showing Up, which she also co-authored with him. And now this book called the Way of Play is supporting parents in learning how to play with their kids in order to help them with their development, and what I wanted to focus on specifically with her.

Speaker 1:

There's so much in her book, but the one thing that I was most interested in obviously was emotional development. How do you support your child through play, and there are so many ways and tips that you're going to get from this book that you could sit down and support your child so that the next time something happens. They will have the skills and the tools but it takes time. But, like she's going to tell you, not much time. It takes a bit of the skills and the time for you to sit down and you will see a difference in your child. I know it because I do it with my kids and that's how I support parents as well, and so I really do hope you enjoy my conversation as much as I did with Tina Payne Bryson. Welcome back everyone and, as promised, I'm here with Tina Payne Bryson. Welcome back to the Curious Around podcast.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me, cindy. I love your work. I think you do such beautiful things in the world, and you and I always have a great time having a chat, so I'm really looking forward to getting into it with you.

Speaker 1:

I am looking forward to speaking with you as well. I have to say the power, the way of play. I have your other book in my mind. The way of play is definitely a book that we all need to have and, like I said in the intro when I was talking about you and your work, I don't think you need an introduction, but just in case, I said it because I wanted to make sure everybody knew who you were. But I said, all they have to do is look at their bookshelf. There has to be one of your books on it. Every single book you put out there is important for parents, and the Way of Play is another one. So congratulations on that. I'm always curious to know how the idea came about. Is it something you were seeing the lack of something? How did this book subject come about?

Speaker 2:

You know I'm a mom to three kids and I enjoyed playing with them sometimes, and then other times I thought it was so boring, I thought I was gonna like scratch my eyes out and my boys played very differently from how I played as a kid, you know I would. I made sure my boys had like nurturing toys, like baby dolls and things like that, but they would stick baby doll heads in the edges of a door and see how much pressure it took to collapse the baby's head, you know, and so, or like I would, I didn't have any guns or weaponry or whatever, but they would chew their grilled cheeses into guns.

Speaker 2:

And thank God I was a pediatric, you know, psychotherapist, and I had read Dr Michael Thompson's books about boys and how it's just play it's play. We don't have to assume that they're going to be sociopaths. So I had kind of a complex relationship when it came to play and I love to play as a little girl and and when I think back about the ways that I played as a little girl it's very reflective of who I am now. You know, I liked a lot of play. That was where I was organizing things and having clipboards and ordering people around, and that's pretty much what I like to do now too. So I have this kind of interesting kind of history around play and I was. You know I've written a lot of books. This is number six and not not including the three workbooks if we include the three works, because this would be number nine and I wasn't going to write another book. I'm tired. I've raised three kids, I have started an interdisciplinary clinical practice in Southern California and written nine books all in a period of 13 years. So I'm just I was like I'm not gonna write a book. But what happened was Georgie was sent.

Speaker 2:

Vincent is an incredible seasoned play therapist who who has a neuro developmental like whole brain child lens. She's worked with me. We ran into each other. She came up and introduced herself to me at a store. We were out, like in Pasadena, california, where I live, and she was like with her kid in her stroller and she was like, are you, tina? And she's like I'm a play therapist. I said, oh my gosh, you should come work with me at the Center for Connection. And so she did. And then she's trained our whole team and she also goes out and trains educators and and clinicians and parents all over the world. So about a year and a half ago she said hey, I really, you know, I'm doing tons of trainings in schools and tons of trainings for professionals. I really want to take these things that we know as play therapists and take what you know as a neuro, you know in your neurodevelopmental lens, and how do we get it to parents? So I'm going to write this curriculum. You know we'll, just, we'll, we'll make it digital available for parents. And so she sent it to me and what she had written I was like this is a book. We have to get this to parents and I'll tell you as I talk.

Speaker 2:

As I've talked with parents over the years, parents will either tell me I don't know how to play, I don't feel comfortable playing, I hate playing, or I want to play but my kid's telling me I'm doing it wrong and I don't know what to do. So I can get on the floor. But then what? And we know coming out of COVID that there are concerns about kids in terms of, like you know, their development. Um, or people have concerns. So much about that I don't really have a lot of concerns about that. I trust development to unfold and I think when kids get experiences there they catch up. But, um, but basically, play is incredible because it it helps kids process whatever they're going through, and that might be something huge, you know, some big loss.

Speaker 2:

Like I live in Los Angeles. We've just had these fires. It's a great way to process fear and loss and all of those kinds of things. It's also great to process things like my sister keeps pushing me out of her play and I really want to play with her or someone's my teacher's kind of scary. Sometimes they will play these things. What we say in the book is what children cannot say. They will play and they do a making sense process there. So it helps kids, boost their development. It helps them process what they're doing. It helps them learn and grow linguistically, cognitively, in terms of their motor systems. All these things, and when, when parents and children play together, it is absolutely in service of the most important thing we can do for our kids, and that is to promote secure attachment.

Speaker 2:

So most of the books that are out there about play are on free, unstructured play, and particularly in nature, and I'm a huge fan of that. I don't think kids get enough of it. And then there's also people know also about structured play, which would be, like, you know, team sports or even board games. Those are great too, but there's there's only. There was only one book we knew of, and that was Lawrence Cohen's book playful parent, um parenting, which I love, and so it was an honor that he blurbed our book that really talked about what do you do, how do you play with them, because the way that we play with them, when we follow their lead by using some really simple strategies, we are helping them build incredible skills and knowing them at a deep level as well, on top of all of these other benefits. So I just I felt like I got to get this out there.

Speaker 1:

And that's why I appreciate your book so much, because many of the parents that I speak with say I don't know how to play with my child, or I don't know what to do when I'm playing with them, or, like you said, like I think I'm doing it wrong, or my child is telling me I'm doing it wrong, no-transcript. But I think that in general, parents just think like it's about asking questions, right, like you sit there, you play and you ask questions. But you really highlight the different types of play, which we'll talk about in a few minutes. But it's not just about sitting there with your child, right, and it's not just about asking questions either. How can we start giving parents a bit of an understanding of, like the overall? When you say, play with your child, we want you to be present, right? Is it two hours? Is it 10 minutes? What does it look like?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that, because that's actually one of the complaints we hear from parents all the time. It's like, first of all, parents need to. We need to switch our lens about what play is and why we should do it in the first place. You know, I remember feeling so much of the time. It was like what my kids wanted most to do. It's their first language, it's the thing that lights them up the most.

Speaker 2:

They get tons of dopamine when they play and, as you know, dopamine is a, is a um motivator. It's like what it's drive and motivation, so like they want to do more of it, more of it, more of it and um and so what's amazing, though, is we often think of it as something to pass the time, like, okay, fine, I'll play because it'll kill some of the time between now and dinner or whatever, but it's this incredibly rich world and you don't have to do it for hours. So these strategies in the book, literally like. I can give some examples it's 30 seconds, three minutes. If you can do this for 10 to 15 minutes. It is so rich with connection, which has a huge impact on your child's regulation tank.

Speaker 2:

And which also means it has a huge impact on your child's behavior and their ability to cooperate and all of these things. But it also is so powerful to build these skills, so like, for example, one of my very favorites and this is is one you know and to give you another example, in a minute I can talk about the idea of making yourself a mirror, which is literally a strategy you can use in three seconds. Um, but my one of my favorite strategies in the book that is exactly what you're talking about in terms of this emotional regulation and how long it takes right, is, um, called bring emotions to life. So let's just kind of slow down and think about this for a minute. You know it's not asking your kids questions, so let me describe a scenario. So my son, four or five at the time he loved tying knots on things, so he would typical, a typical play sequence that he would do over and over would be to tie a rope to a doorknob and then tie the rope to the top of like a castle, and he would hand me an action figure and he would say, um, he'd have like his guy down on the castle and he'd hand me the guy up at the top of the rope near the doorknob and he would be like, hey, mom, get this guy down to the castle. You got to get him down there. Um, his buddies are waiting for him, or something like that. Right, so I could easily hook the action figure guy onto the arm you know his arm onto the rope and go and have him come down and join the guy, and that's super fun. I'm following my kids lead. Yeah, it's great. And play doesn't have to be didactic, it doesn't have to be teaching skills, it doesn't have to be it's, it's fun for the sake of fun. And if mutual delight is happening, that is huge for building secure attachment. So in and of itself, just being present and joining with them, that is providing them with tons of brain benefits.

Speaker 2:

But what if, in this moment, I tried one of the strategies in the way of play called bring emotions to life, and all I'm going to do and this is so great for parents like if you're tired, you can't come up with anything super creative, you can do this, you can do this without too much of a cognitive demand. But basically, what if I introduced an emotion for my character? So I say to my son I don't know if I can make it. I've never done this before. Okay, so now I'm introducing an emotion which is kind of fear, tentativeness, uncertainty, and I'm giving words that go with this scenario. I'm trying something I've never done before, I don't feel confident in doing it, and here are the emotions that go with it, so I'm giving language to all of those things. Then what happens is because my child wants the play to continue. He, as a four or five year old, has to come up with an emotional the play to continue. He, as a four or five year old, has to come up with an emotional solution to this emotional problem.

Speaker 2:

So he wants my guy to get down there. So he's going to come up with something. He's going to be a problem solver. He's going to say some version of like like one time he would have said don't worry, I'm going to send a guy up to get you, he'll show you the way, okay, so now the messaging that's happening here is my kid now has solved a problem. He's also responding to someone else's emotion, right, and the answer he comes up with is it's about connection, it's about community. But something else implicit is happening here, cindy, and that is that my kid now knows we talk about our emotions right Now. He's getting that all the time anyway. But we're also giving these really important messages in the play that construct reality, because as parents, we are meaning makers for our children and we, all the time, are communicating our values, um and so by even just talking about the emotion of an action figure um with him and his action figure, action figure with him and his action figure he's also getting this like we talk to each other when we're uncertain or we're we're afraid, we ask for help, we share our emotions, and so that's really huge.

Speaker 2:

And I want to say just one other thing, there are lots and lots of different ways to communicate or to define emotion regulation. One of the ones I really like comes from my co-author, dan Siegel, which I just heard him recently use this phrase. I wish I had known it for a really long time but he talks about the ability to monitor and modify, and so when you think about this and so obviously then co-regulation would be the ability to monitor and modify someone else's state. What that means is I'm also laying the groundwork for that, because if I'm saying I've never done this before, I'm not sure I'm scared to do this, and then he's got to come up with a solution. What I'm doing is I'm also laying the groundwork for monitoring our internal states and what language goes with that, and then how do we modify it to make it a tolerable stress?

Speaker 2:

So it really is. This one strategy, along with many others bring emotions to life is an incredible way to flex our children's muscles when it comes to emotional regulation and to flex our own muscles, Because as we do that in kind of a what's called symbolic distance, we're not even necessarily talking about ourselves. We're talking about the action, figures, feelings. The more we get reps, repeated experiences around, talking about emotions, sharing emotions and problem solving emotions. Our brains are getting those reps too, and the degree to which we can do that with characters is also influencing our ability to do that for ourselves and for our children.

Speaker 1:

I'm so happy you said that word reps because this is what I keep trying to tell parents right, it's not a one time. Here's how to deal with anger or here's what to do next time you feel worried. We need to have repetitions. It's the same way that if I were to say, you and I should join a tennis tournament, Well, we're going to need reps, we're going to need to practice, you and I.

Speaker 1:

We're going to have to build the skills, and it's the same thing around emotions, and so play really gives you that opportunity to put those reps in right, like get that workout of what to do in those moments.

Speaker 2:

The fire and wire.

Speaker 1:

So it becomes who they are, and what they're capable of Exactly.

Speaker 1:

And that word monitors is a really simple way for us to remember one thing that I think I'd love to talk to you about. You know we talk about our parents will often say you know, I've taught them all the different emotions. They understand these words and they're able to say I'm angry. They're able to say I, I'm angry. They're able to say I'm mad, I'm sad, but then nothing changes and they know the words, but then, like, they haven't improved how they deal with that. Well, the coping part. So the monitoring piece to me is the self-awareness piece, right, Like, do they know when they feel that way? Do they know after the modifying piece? Do they know what to do when they feel that? How do you cope with that?

Speaker 1:

So how does play come in? You know you talk about self-awareness in your book as well. So how do you, like now, with the example you gave, the child understands that this is a safe space to talk about emotions. You know that character is going to have different emotions. My parents are bringing up emotions. But now how do you build that sort of self-awareness through play with a child? Let's say you've noticed that they get angry very easily. We can use that example Maybe. How do you use play in that way?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, the first thing is to say in general how we learn any skill, like you talked about with the reps. You know, we know from the science that children will anyone, adults too. We learn best number one by doing something ourselves and practicing it over and over and over.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, second way we learn is by what is modeled for us, and we are held captive to one another in terms of how our brains pick up on things from each other. So let me give a really specific example. This is also a strategy called think out loud, which is kind of similar. But the example we give in the book is about a little boy who is aggressive with his little sister. He's, he's, he's really aggressive with her and she he gets really frustrated because she interferes with something he's building. And so you know, how do we so great? So now maybe your kid can say I'm so mad. But then what?

Speaker 2:

right, yeah, or you can help him have that emotional vocabulary. And it's funny. I just came from teaching. I was working with my clinical team this afternoon. We always, once a month, come together and learn together and I was teaching and one of our brilliant clinicians, maggie, talked about how one of the things that she's learned is that that we can distinguish between the idea of a thermometer and a thermostat. So a thermometer can tell you how, what the we can give you the reading right. But a thermostat is able to change it. Right. You can make something hotter or colder, right. And actually in the book, one of our strategies is called um, dialing intensity up or down, um. But.

Speaker 2:

But so let's go back to this little boy. So he's really mad. He's aggressive with his sister. She starts encroaching, you know cause? She's two and she wants to explore. She's encroaching onto his space and he he will shove her or hit her or in some cases, in the actual clinical story, he would kind of go to strangle her. Um.

Speaker 2:

So when we talk about how do we help them build the modified piece as well, well, one way we can do that is obviously through modeling right.

Speaker 2:

So, as we're doing pretend play, maybe we get mad about something and we stomp our foot and we're like I'm so mad, I really wanted the hot dog guy to give me three hot dogs and he only gave me two hot dogs.

Speaker 2:

And then you can literally and again. You don't have to make everything super didactic, but you can be like, oh, I'm so mad, I feel hot in my body, I'm going to take three big breaths and do four pushups and I'm going to let all that anger come out of my body. Right, so you can even and, by the way, your kids will give you lots of opportunities to do this I remember one time at bedtime, one of my little boys said why are you so frustrated at me? Um, and I didn't even realize that I had kind of gotten into that tone of voice and that kind of like brusqueness, and so I said you're right, I'm going to take two big breaths and I'm going to turn in three circles and then I'm going to do four pushups and then I'm going to be ready to be kind and gentle again.

Speaker 2:

So I can model that right. So we want to. We can do that even in the play. But in the strategy, think out loud. Basically, what we're doing is it's sort of like sports casting, but it's a little bit deeper because we're also tuning into what thoughts and wishes and intentions and emotions our kid might be having inside of themselves. So your son, maybe, is building a tower and little sister walks into the room. But before she walks into the room you can say something like what you're trying to do is think out loud for your child. You're like the external speaker to what's happening on their internal landscape. So you can say it looks like you're building a tower and you're look, it looks like you're trying to make it really, really tall. So a couple of amazing things happen. Your kid's like oh, she knows me, she understands my mind. And if she can understand my mind and give words to what's in my mind and how I'm thinking and feeling, then I can give words to what I'm I'm thinking and feeling.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

And then you know, one of the things I teach kids is that, um, and adults is that feelings are really important information, because they usually tell us, um, that we might need something different, but you know they, they can tell us we might need something different, um, or what we might be needing. So, anyway, so I can, I can say this. So now, after some reps, this little boy can say, um, I'm building a really big tower and Emma's coming and she's going to knock it over and I don't want her to touch my tower. Can you hold her over there until I'm done with this part? So now, all of a sudden, someone can use their words and they can really express a wish and a desire.

Speaker 2:

And when and now I'm jumping to the whole range child when we name something, it actually helps us regulate, it helps tame the emotional reactivity. So it so just being able to say, to observe our own minds and share what we are thinking and feeling. That in and of itself is a modifier right. So that's one thing we can do there as well, Not to mention all the things we can model in play.

Speaker 1:

Again, this book is just so necessary for all parents because we see the behavior and you know experts like yourself and so many other experts we talk about like what's the why behind the behavior? But we see the externalization of it. But then it gets so difficult, I think, for many parents to say, well, I'm not sure the why is. I can see my child is angry, I can see the behavior, but I think that play offers that opportunity, one to teach these skills but also to explore. What would you say to a parent who says, well, I can tell that maybe the behavior is a little bit more difficult for them to understand, right? So maybe a child is afraid of going to school, or they cry and they're starting preschool, and every single morning it's the same scenario where the child doesn't want to go into the classroom. How can you use play in that sense to kind of understand the why behind the behavior that you're seeing?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think one of the best play okay, let's say it this way when something is fun, okay, so that can be play like you're on the floor doing things. Or let's say you have a teenager or an older kid who's not doing as much pretend play anymore, like maybe a 10 year old, 11 year old. They're moving out of that. So when something like imaginary play or like traditional kind of play we might think about in childhood, or playfulness and silliness, when something is fun enough, what we know that it does is it helps, and this is obviously oversimplified. But when we think about the nervous system, it's if we're either in a reactive state or we're in a receptive state, and this is obviously oversimplified. But when we think about the nervous system, it's if we're either in a reactive state or we're in a receptive state, and the receptive state we could also call from the whole brain child, the river of wellbeing, where we're in a state of integration. Or we can talk about Dan Siegel's phrase, your window of tolerance. It's also where we're regulated right.

Speaker 2:

So when something is fun enough or silly or playful, two things happen. One is we wanted to keep going, so, even if we are afraid or we're angry or frustrated or whatever. No, they don't want to play with me. The way I want to play with you know, but I want the play to continue. Play itself silliness. Playfulness expands our window of tolerance. So what it does is it gives us reps tolerating challenging situations and emotions, and this is how resilience gets built right, I was just going to say right exactly, which we will get into.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the formula for that we can talk about.

Speaker 2:

But the other piece of this is that and this is based on Yach Pinksepp's beautiful work he was known as the rat tickler because he actually worked with rats who knew but they play and actually laugh. And what he discovered and then many things since then have looked at is that when we are in a threat state, when there is a threat present, play stops. So we can only play when we're not in threat states.

Speaker 2:

So that means that play can be used to prevent reactive states and keep us in receptive, regulated states, but it also can help us recover from them. So let me give let's go back to your question Like, let's say it's every day your kid has separation anxiety, they don't want to, they don't want to go to school, or it's a big meltdown. The way that we help expand their window of tolerance to have maybe a successful transition to school or goodbye in the morning, is to try as best as we can to use playfulness to kind of get us there. So let me give a couple of really specific examples. One is and this comes from Georgie, my co-author, and she and I both posted this on our Instagram is to do what we would call a scout it out. So basically you don't go at the school drop off time. You go the day before or the week before maybe your kid's starting a new soccer team and they're feeling unsure about it, or whatever you can go and you are a detective. You go and you're like we're going to go scout it out and we're going to sit across the street and in fact we're going to pretend it's even a movie. We're going to bring popcorn with us and we're going to sit and we're going to eat popcorn and we're going to watch it like it's a movie, let's go scout it out. And then, knowing your kid and every kid is different you can even be like stay within, like curiosity and that kind of thing. So when we're activating curiosity along with playfulness and silliness, we're actually getting a double dose of a protective factor that keeps the prefrontal cortex engaged as opposed to moving into more reactive state.

Speaker 2:

So I had a client one time who was I think she was 10 or 11 and her dad was a really safe person. Um, and you know, as a clinician I had to check that out because what her behavior was was, um, anytime her mom would leave, even if it was just to go to the grocery store for 45 minutes and leave her there with her dad or at school drop-offs. This, this um child would get so dysregulated that she would like vomit and like the separation. Anxiety was really, really intense and I think I probably talked about this the last time I was on your show. But of course we chased the why and we peeled back the layers as to why she might have this kind of dysregulation and in this case she had a sensory processing challenge and her mom was her best tool to stay regulated.

Speaker 2:

So when her mom left, it activated a threat state for her because she didn't feel like she didn't have a tool to help her stay regulated without her mom. So I had been reading Lawrence Cohen's book the Playful Parent or Playful Parenting, and I used it as a clinician. So what I wanted to do and we're going to get really nerdy here together, cindy is I wanted to decouple the automaticity, so the automatic response between mom leaving and this threat state of panic and fear and upsetness and upset stomach and all this stuff and instead create some reps to get her brain to fire and wire to mom leaving and I'm okay and I feel okay and maybe it's even fun sometimes.

Speaker 2:

So the way I did this with her and her siblings and her mom was we knew the mom was leaving to go to a PTA meeting or something the next week and so we created and this is just silly and playful, I made it up, it's dumb but it worked was operation prank dad. So in session I was like what would you want to do if you were going to prank your dad? And she was like fake bug in his food underwear in the freezer. We were going to prank your dad and she was like fake bug in his food underwear in the freezer. We had this whole plan right and she got her siblings in on it.

Speaker 2:

So she and her siblings gathered a laundry basket full of socks and underwear and so when mom reached for the doorknob which was always a cue of panic that was the symbol to start throwing the socks and underwear at dad. So she and her siblings were like conspiring. They were anticipating silliness and joy and play instead of anticipating the freak out. And over time this completely rewired her brain for what a separation from mom is. So I would say, if we can be silly and playful in our approach.

Speaker 2:

It's an incredible way to strengthen our child's capacity so that they can tolerate these things. And the more they tolerate them, the more they trust themselves, the more confidence they have and the more their nervous system knows it's something that can work for them.

Speaker 1:

That is such an amazing example, I think, reminds all of us. You know that it's not as simple as just asking why or telling, asking your child like, why are you doing this? Why are you reacting this way? We have to become really curious about it. They won't be able to tell us, and I think that idea of the cue is so important and that you were able to kind of pinpoint that One thing that you said before.

Speaker 1:

I've always said it as are we escalating the situation or deescalating? But you had the oh I forget now the word that you used the dial, yeah, dialing up or down, right, and so I really love that you have the images in your book and I think it really helps parents to understand what's happening. So I'm thinking of that cue now and I'm linking into that, because sometimes the cue to escalating things is us and we might not be doing it intentionally. I've done it myself and we react a certain way to our child. We use a certain word, we use a certain phrase that just escalates the whole thing and what we see is not what we've done but the behavior just getting worse and worse. How?

Speaker 2:

do we call it like co-escalation instead of co-regulation?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, right, and so you know, I think this is an important concept. So can you talk a little bit about like the dialing up or down, and that's obviously the regulation piece and all that? How do we start to kind of tune into all of that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I will say that for me, like I was pretty skilled at like trying, like trying to do relational first aid, so like when I was about to yell at my kids or I was frustrated I typically wouldn't I wouldn't say berating things, like I would keep my mouth closed, but non verbally, I was basically screaming at them, you know, like I was rolling my eyes and I was like I'm like you know big breaths and stuff, so they were getting all of that and so even if we're not yelling at them, sometimes we're, you know we're escalating things because we're not in regulated states or we're kind of verging on the edge of that.

Speaker 2:

Now that's not to say you should expect yourself to do that all the time. And I think people misunderstand co-regulation a lot. I think they think, like, literally, when I talk to parents and they have it wrong, they somehow think they're supposed to be this weird, like robot person that only uses, like very, and I'm like that's almost sociopathic, like that you sound like a robot that does not. And to me, like co-regulation is that my child is borrowing my regulation. Right, I am monitoring and modifying their state. Now, what that means is exactly what you're talking about.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes my child is in a hyper aroused state and there are lots of things we can do when our kid is having a meltdown or they're in really escalated states and that is usually going a little bit slower making ourself available. But it doesn't mean that we're just using a calm, totally robotic voice. It can be like, oh, you're so frustrated right now I mean, do you hear the amplification even in my voice? Right, I can be like, oh, this is so frustrating, I know, I know you're trying so hard and it won't go the way you want it to. Oh, how can I help? Or what do you need? Right, so I might even ask a question there. Um, if my kid's younger, I might just offer a hug or I might scaffold and help them be the solution, but with some support. So those are some strategies to like. Really bad behavior is when they most need connection.

Speaker 2:

And when we are, you know, and and our we're these states, meltdowns are super contagious, so we can easily go there. And I don't know about you, but I know lots of times like I'll be patient, patient, patient, patient for like forever, and then I lose it and my kid doesn't give me any credit for how long I was.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I know, and then I asked for the credit. I'm like, come on, did you see that I was calm for a long time?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, a lot of people don't talk about when it comes to co regulation is what if your kid isn't acting out like that?

Speaker 2:

What if instead and we talked about this in the dial emotions up or down, you know, even even not talking about if your kids totally lost it. But let's say your kid in play is like hitting you too hard with the foam sword, um, or they're, they're, you know you're, you're, you're building a Ford and they're kind of start whacking you with pills and it's too much. One of the things, and particularly if you have a kid who is still flexing their muscles and learning some impulse control, whether they have a diagnosis or not, they all need some some um, skill building in that area. Um, you can say, instead of just saying stop it, knock it off, where you're not really doing anything to build skills, you can say, whoa, that was so hard, that was like a 10. Can you try it at a five? Let's try medium, right. So then you give them practice, kind of dialing it back a little. So that's another way we can talk about that, not just emotional dysregulation.

Speaker 2:

But the thing that a lot of people don't talk about is what happens if your kid is and every kid is different. I had one that when he got dysregulated he wanted to fight and argue and be aggressive. I had one that would just cry. He would just cry when he got dysregulated and he just wanted to be held. And then I had one that's going to fit into this category that a lot of people don't talk about, and that was where he kind of went into states of hypo arousal which looked for him like running away, getting under things, withdrawing from everybody, not talking. So we're not seeing a lot of externalizing behaviors like crying or yelling or being aggressive. We're seeing internalizing behavior where they shut down and withdraw.

Speaker 2:

That is hard too, because you know, when they're kind of in really reactive states we're like, oh, I'm right here with you. You know, come on, let's, let's go outside. You need a hug, like you. You know we can come up with these solutions, but what if a kid won't talk and they're pulled away from everything? That is also a dysregulated, reactive state. So what I would suggest there, and what we talk about in the in the way of play in terms of dialing intensity up, is to go low and slow. Um, if you come in hot with a lot of come on, let's go outside, let's go do some stuff, or you know, oh, come on, that is, you're not meeting them where they're at, so you kind of, maybe need to kind of, and almost all of our strategies talk about. The first two steps are observe and attune. So you're joining with instead of doing something to your kid.

Speaker 1:

Which is stopping you from reacting as well. Right, it's giving you that pause. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2:

Engage your prefrontal right and just stay integrated. So maybe your kid like I'm imagining my kid it, you know it could be six, it could be 15, anywhere in between, um, in his room, under the covers or on his bed arms crossed, doesn't want to talk.

Speaker 2:

Maybe he's mad at me, or maybe he's not mad at me, but he's not talking. What if I just sit close, but not too close, and I might get closer as as the moments unfold, as it seems right, and maybe I just put my hand on a foot or a leg and I just rubbed his leg a little bit to kind of create some kind of activation through a sensory system, like the tactile system, um, or I put a little bit of music on or um, maybe I have a little foam ball and I roll it to him and then say you know, do this, hoping he'll roll it back. But basically we just we kind of go like, if they're at like a two, we don't want to go to a nine, we want to be at like a two and a half or a three, and what we're trying to do is regulate by helping them dial up. And the way that happens is through cues of safety. And we can spend we can spend six episodes talking about that Um, but through cues of safety, um, particularly through um positive, predictable relationship with your grownup, um, and then also just slowly kind of inviting them to re-engage um their sensory system and their um re-engaging, and so that that means not yanking them too hard, but just kind of being there and maybe you make, maybe, if you think they're mad at you, you can kind of make fun of yourself a little bit, be like, wow, I, that was a little silly, what I just did in there. That was kind of wow, that was a lot I do. You want to imitate me? Or should I imitate myself? So you can bring in these little, you know these little ways of being funny.

Speaker 2:

I'll say and I won't say which kid, but if you know my age as a kid you're going to guess it. But even today, like my kid's room is so awful right now and I went in his room to find a bag of mine that he used to clean out his car, so I went in there and you can't even walk through the room, like it's a safety hazard, and of course we've had these fires here. So I'm a little hypervigilant about making sure floor spaces are clear in case we need to evacuate. And so I took a picture of his room and I sent it to him and I was like, oh, you forgot to tell me you were on the next episode of hoarders. So I could say like your room is a disaster, clean it up right now, and that's fine.

Speaker 2:

If I say that, that's fine, I'm not damaging him for life, I'm not damaging the relationship, but so much better to be silly and playful. And so, and then he responds yeah, mom, but there's no dishes in there, and I'm like you know what Small wins. I'm so glad about that. You know what? I'm just being sarcastic, right, yeah, and he's like I'll clean it up soon. Now I'm gonna have to reinforce, I mean, I'm gonna have to follow up. It's not going to just magically happen, but I think anytime we want to elicit cooperation to that, you know, playfulness and silliness is so much more effective.

Speaker 1:

It's an example of also what you were saying before. In terms of the playfulness it doesn't go away and you just you know, you just gave that example and I think it's just a reminder to all of us that what you and I are talking about is for younger kids, yes, but that concept of playfulness continues into their when they're adults.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and we need it in our lives too, you know definitely couples that are playful with each other and make you know, even making fun of each other in ways that feel good to both people. You know, if we bring playfulness into our lives, as adults remember, one of the best ways kids learn is by what we model, and so it's such a great way to deescalate things, it's such a great way to again elicit cooperation. And I understand, as parents like I'm so tired right now I'm just to be, just to be honest, I'm just so tired and I've felt that a lot as a parent just so taxed mentally, emotionally, physically. It's actually a sign that we probably need it more than ever. But I also think that you know parents will say to me like I'm so tired, I don't have that mental bandwidth to do an effing puppet show to get them to put their shoes on. What do you mean? Be playful with them to elicit cooperation.

Speaker 2:

But the truth is, the battles we end up, like we typically know for the most part, when we're going to have a battle, Like you know, that night, when you're drawing the bath, you're like this could be a really this could be a rough evening. Like I know it's coming right. He hasn't had, he didn't have a nap today, or I can tell he's not feeling well, or you know he's sugared up. You know whatever it is. We often can tell if it's going to be kind of a potentially a rough moment coming up, or we know it's always a pain point to get our kid to school or brush teeth or or have our teenager get to bed at a decent time. We might already know that's always a battle.

Speaker 1:

That's true.

Speaker 2:

What we want and as humans it's so funny, and I'm I'm this way too we even if something isn't working, we keep doing it over and over and over again and then keep being frustrated that it's not changing. So what I would say is, if you think about a pain point in your daily routine, what could you do to bring in some silliness and playfulness? Because, honestly, the amount of energy you will put into doing that is so much less of a mental and emotional, physical demand than being a little creative. So, like, one of the things that worked for my kids to elicit any kind of cooperation was using storytelling, and I'm not even that good at it, so, but I would be like, okay, and this would be for, like, getting shoes on or getting teeth, brush pajamas on, whatever is I would.

Speaker 2:

I would just be like oh my gosh, I have a story that I've been meaning to tell you, or I just whatever. Be like okay, listen, there are these three squirrels and they did something no one ever thought they would do and they got in so much trouble. Okay, put your pajamas on, brush your teeth. As soon as you're in bed, I'm going to tell you what happens next. They can't wait to do it Right, and I don't know what's going to happen. It's going to be a stinker of a story probably, but I'm going to make something up Right and, honestly, like that's so much less of a demand than the battle that ends up with me yelling and then they're upset and then no one can go to bed, you know.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I want to know what happened to the squirrels.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I want to know what happened to the squirrels. You said something before, and that was a part of your book that I found really interesting, where you break down, like the emotion-based play. So you talk about expressive play, preventative play and responsive play. We don't have to dig into each one of them, but the preventative play is something you just mentioned before. You know, when we think about everything that we've spoken about up to now, we're not talking about like in the moment with their child or they're having these big emotions. We're talking about everything in between. And so what is preventative play and how can you use this to, I'm assuming, the examples you just gave? Like you're talking about in the moment, let's say, with storytelling, but maybe there's a situation that we could, I'm assuming, just kind of create play to prevent the next time that's going to happen.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, for sure. Those examples are like the scout out example that we talked about before, where we're kind of using these moments to rehearse or to practice or those kinds of things. But also like, imagine you know if you're expecting a baby or you know you're getting ready to move or something that's coming. Um, you know, play is storytelling and it's like therapy, you know, I mean it is therapy. But so you could even, let's say, um, you know there's, you're moving houses. Well, get out some blocks and build, this is our house. And then look, here's our new house. Um, will you help me build it, or whatever, and let them kind of play out those stories, like I'll tell you right now, well, that's, that's more responsive. But yeah, so, um, so prevent, preventing is, um, is things that you know are coming up, or things that you know maybe pain points, um, or things you want your kid to build some skills around. So even the speak out loud strategy we could think of as preventative play, because I'm helping him make you know, find words to describe his inner life. That's like long-term, he can do that. So that that's for sure Some of the stuff that we've talked about and in terms of responsive, like in LA right now, a lot of kids are um, because so many homes and schools have been burned to the ground.

Speaker 2:

Um, a lot of building things. And they're building things and they're building, pretend they're building on fireproof walls that go around these structures. And what's amazing is, if kids can imagine it, it is incredibly healing too. So that's responsive. You know, we're processing and working through and it gives them, even though it's imaginary, it is embedded in their psyche, as if that was possible. So it gives them a felt sense of safety and security that has maybe been ripped away from them. And you know, it's really, really similar to in Whole Brain Child when we talk about integrating implicit and explicit memory by telling the story, integrating implicit and explicit memory by telling the story and we're just kids are playing it. So it helps them process.

Speaker 2:

And what will happen sometimes is kids will play the same thing over and over and over because they're working through something, just like they might want you to read the same story over and over and over, because they're scaffolding in new layers of it until they grasp it. And sometimes kids can get stuck. And this is where play therapists can be really helpful, where we're not taking over the play. But we might say like, hmm, do we have any other solutions to this problem? What else could we try? Or gosh I'm, and then we add in some of the other ones, like I'm feeling kind of afraid, I want to feel stronger, what can I do to feel stronger? And you can kind of like introduce some of those things as well. But but yeah, it's, it's both preventative and then these other types as well.

Speaker 1:

Right, and, and just as a side note to people that are listening, you mentioned the fires. Any sort of trauma, any sort of you know, if a parent, a grandparent or somebody passes away, plays that way to get them to again. Like you said, it's creating that safe space and then they can have the conversations perhaps a little bit more easily with you. But we forget the importance of that and that plays part of that.

Speaker 2:

And resilience building like we mentioned earlier, and I think you know the formula for resilient, you know the difference and you know this, of course, the difference between something being toxic and traumatic, um, and being more tolerable, is typically the presence of a safe, positive, predictable relationship. Right, so it's really being in connection and community with each other, um, and, like I said, like that idea of mutual delight, you're, you know, as a, as parents, we don't have to have it all together and we, we are facing adversity. Many of us with young kids or sandwich generation, we have older parents we're taking care of, who maybe have health issues or will at some point. Life is busy and full, and then we have losses and we have difficult. We may have some of you listening. You may be having some really challenging stuff happening in your primary relationships, in your family. Whatever we're going through, I think of sort of the the resilient.

Speaker 2:

You know, it's a lot of times when I talk to parents about, like, really being there with your kid and co-regulating them. Sometimes the pushback I get is like, yeah, but I don't want to make them fragile, I don't want to coddle them, yeah. And so I talk about how, like when kids are dysregulated and we help bring them back into regulation. It's a rep for their brain to learn how to regulate for themselves. That's how self-regulation happens, by many, many experiences being co-regulated. But the resilience formula and it's probably oversimplified is like adversity minus someone showing up for you is fragility. But adversity plus someone showing up for you not even perfectly equals resilience. And so we cannot control the adversity most of the time. But what we can control is showing up right and how we show up and the way and you know, in the power of showing up, dan and I talk about the way we show up is by and this is really my North star for how I handle everything as a parent. Like lots of times I'm like I don't know what to do, I don't know what to say, but this is always my answer and that is that I want to respond in a way that helps my kid feel the four S's safe scene that's where I'm tuning into the internal world soothed that's the co-regulation piece and secure and knowing I'm going to show up no matter what. And so when we help kids feel safe and seen and soothed and secure and knowing we're going to keep showing up, that is the foundation of secure attachment, which is one of the best predictors for how well kids turn out on everything, but it's also the key to resilience and optimal development. So I think that's that's just key. And, of course, that's really hard to do if we're not regulated.

Speaker 2:

So, um, you know, our own regulation is at the heart of this um, and I'll just tell you one of the strategies that has helped me the most over all my, all the times I I almost yelled and yelled and all the stuff. And the thing that has helped me the most is to put a hand on my chest and a hand on my belly and to do the physiological sigh which Huberman has made popular but we've known about it since the 1930s. I've been teaching it for decades is basically all it is is that your exhale is longer than your inhale. So basically, I would put a hand on my chest and hand on my belly and I would just exhale, and I would do that two or three times. And while I was doing that, the self-talk I was having in my head is if you want to be the calm in the storm, you cannot be. The storm at his worst is when he needs you the most. Um, this is not an emergency, you know like I would do this like self-talk.

Speaker 2:

And what was funny, cindy, is that, um, when I would feel myself starting to to go down the flip your lid route, like about to become dysregulated, I would notice that about myself. I could feel myself getting angry, and the more you start paying attention to that, you'll know kind of oh, I'm getting close to jumping off that ledge there. And I would do this, I would put my hand on my chest and belly and I would close my eyes and I would start to breathe. And my kids was just crazy. They knew that that meant that I was on the verge of really losing it and yelling, and so they would rein themselves in because they were like oh, we're at that point, okay, not that they're responsible for my emotional regulation, but we are in relationship with each other regulation, but we're in relationship with each other. And I was also modeling for them to notice and to monitor and modify, not just monitor.

Speaker 1:

I love that, and you said so much, oh my gosh. Okay. So where do I begin? There's so many ideas.

Speaker 1:

First, that resilience piece I think is so important for us to talk about, because I think there is some sort of misunderstanding sometimes in terms of resilience, and I've heard parents say that too, like I don't want my child to be weak, I want them to be resilient. I've had a really heated discussion with a father once that was trying to convince me that all children need to be bullied so that they could be resilient and that they needed that in their life. But you mentioned the other piece to that right. So it's not just the having adversity, there's more to it.

Speaker 1:

But in terms of resilience also, I think we struggle with knowing how to show up for our children sometimes. So, coming thinking of my generation of parents, it was just like, well, you're afraid of jumping into the deep end, just jump into the deep end, but you bring up scaffolding in your book and I think it's really important for us to talk about that just a little bit, because as your child is getting older or moving away from the building blocks, there are going to be opportunities and moments when our child needs to jump, or wants to jump into that deep end, or put their head under the water for the first time, or climb the tallest structure at the park. What does scaffolding look like for a child, and how do we introduce that in their playtime?

Speaker 2:

Such an important question, and I think one of the things is that we have to know our kids right and and our kids, some of our kids are slower to warm up and they need more scaffolding, they need more baby steps. Other kids can go ahead first and it's it's totally true. So, um, so, just knowing that and know that your child is not the same as you, and so what it works for you or what used to work for you and your kid may be totally different from your kid. We want to honor their individual differences so that we can stay a trusted person. Now, the other thing to know is that the brain is in obviously the most. Our nervous system is the most complex thing in the known universe, right, and in some ways, it's really simple, and I'll tell you one simple thing to know is that what feels good we want more of and what does not feel good we pull away from and avoid. Okay, so that's just a simple truth. Now, when we force our child into something that they are not ready for, without any support or scaffolding, what happens? So let's imagine you have a kid with a really slow to warm up temperament, okay, and let's say I'm like, and so this is my firstborn.

Speaker 2:

We would go to birthday parties where they would have, like, someone dressed up as Dora the Explorer or whatever, and he wanted nothing to do with it. It was terrifying to him, right? Yeah, if I had, just like you know, said no, this is fun, this is a birthday party, All your friends are here Look, your friends are up there too and kind of dragged him up there and made him sit, what would have happened? Is he? Two things would have happened. One is okay I can't trust my mom to kind of keep me safe for what feels good to me right now, and that's okay. We violate that kind of stuff with our kids Lots of times. We make repairs and we make lots of good deposits and helping them trust us. So that's not a you're doomed forever situation. Some of you are like listening, going oh my God, I've ruined my kid forever. No, you haven't.

Speaker 1:

They're thinking of Santa.

Speaker 2:

I'm sure that's exactly. Santa is a perfect example. Right, what happens is um the but the other thing that happens, is it's so it's so much of a leap for them in terms of their comfort.

Speaker 2:

It's so outside of their comfort zone that it feels horrible. Right, their heart is beating really fast, they start sweating, their bodies get hot, they feel afraid or nervous or uncomfortable. Maybe their stomach hurts and then it actually locks that in further. So they're like that was so terrible. I'm not even now. I don't even like Christmas, forget Santa, like now. I hate all Christmas. Right, I'm being dramatic, but basically it's. It's. It's counterproductive to force when your kid is not ready for it, because the nervous system says terrible idea, don't ever do that again and in fact stay five more feet away. So what we want to be doing and we talk about this actually in the whole brain child as well, when we, when I tell a story about my son and swimming lessons and the dialogue.

Speaker 2:

I had with them around this. But what we want to do is scaffold and stretch, which is one of the strategies in the book, and it's based on Lev Vygotsky's theories about the zone of proximal development, which basically means there are things your child is really good at, they're developmentally already there. Then there's stuff that is way outside of where they are developmentally, and then there's this spot between there's this zone of proximal development. They're almost there or they can get there, but they need some support and scaffolding to get there. So this can start with little things Like, for instance, do you remember, cindy, how hard it is to get the top off of a new Play-Doh container?

Speaker 2:

It's hard, it's really hard. It's hard for grownups, right, and it's hard for kids, right. So your kid can come over and just hand it to you, and you can. You can take the lid off, that's fine, um, and you're on the phone and you've got three other kids. Just take the lid off, that's fine, there's no pressure.

Speaker 2:

But if you wanted to scaffold and stretch, what you're doing is you are helping them bridge the gap between what they can't yet do and what they can do. So we might say, oh, this is really hard to get off. You've been working at it so hard, and if they're really little, you might, you know, take two or three things in your hand and say I wonder if any of these things would help get it off. What do you want to try first? So we're kind of providing like the opportunity for a solution, or to kind of like let's try this. This one's not working, what else could we use? Right, and same thing with kids are building things. Like things keep like making a fort, like the ceiling won't stay up. Okay, well gosh, what could we do? What else do we need to do? Do you have any ideas? Or what should we try first? Or what's the next.

Speaker 2:

So we might verbally kind of coach them into that. Or we might be like let's do it together. Pulling the string cheese container you know, wrapper open is really hard for little hands and so you'd be like you grab it and I'm going to hold onto your hand, we're going to pull together, right? So you kind of give, and then they get the feeling of what, of how much you know proprioceptive pull, they need to get that off. So those are the kinds of things. Now let's give just another example for later.

Speaker 2:

Maybe your or maybe your kid wants to have a sleepover, but they're not sure they can stay the whole night. So then you maybe do like what a lot of parents do as well let's do the sleep under Um, and so you just go until you know 10 or 11 o'clock and then I'll get you Um, and so they're not sleeping over, but they're kind of going over and they're in pajamas and they're staying up really late. And then you go get them. So you're kind of edging in and giving them reps. Now I really want to caution. Or let me give an example I have a senior in high school. It'd be really easy for me to keep telling him what to do, but in six months he's going to move out of my house and do things on his own Right. So I'm now thinking a lot about what are the skills he doesn't yet have that he should be practicing now, with my eyes and my input, right? So those, those are the skills he doesn't yet have that he should be practicing now, with my eyes and my input, right. So those, those are the kinds of things I remember one time I had a client who was a teenage girl who her parents had forbid her to date and you all know how that goes right and so but the parents also were monitoring her devices and she didn't know that. Now, keep listen, parents. That's a whole other talk. I encourage you to check out Devorah Heitner's work on how to mentor instead of my, instead of monitoring, and I have a whole thing around that. Like, the devices belong to me, which means I can look at them anytime, which means if you want to have something private that is not something that anyone else would look at or hear you need to do that face to face. He's 18 now. I don't look at his device anymore and I didn't ever that much. Anyway, I just would spot check from you know, in case there were some skills I needed to help build. But I want him to have all of these skills when he goes off, and so that means I have to give him opportunities to do those things.

Speaker 2:

I want to say just one other thing around this. Cindy, we're at a time in history in terms of parenting trends and I'm guilty of this too of over-functioning for our kids. Yeah Right, it's, it's beyond the helicopter parenting. I actually had a colleague I won't give him credit because he wouldn't want his name attached to this who said we're so far beyond helicopter parenting, it's so much more intrusive than that. We should call it suppository parenting because it's that intrusive. But we often over function for our kids, and here's what I want to invite all of us to be doing Instead of scaffolding and stretching our kids, we often just fix it, we just do it, we just handle it, and it's okay to do that.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes. You know, if my kid calls me and he's like oh shoot, I left my computer at home and I really need it today, can you bring it to me. If I'm like I've got a podcast with Cindy, I can't bring it to you right now, I'm so sorry. I know that's really stressful so I don't have to drop my whole life to do it. But if I have time and I can do it and it's not an ongoing issue, I'm happy to do that for him. And if it is an ongoing issue, that tells me there's a skill that needs to be built and we need to get some reps around executive function and making sure there's a checklist. So there's some problem solving. But imagine if I called my husband was like oh my gosh, I'm about to give this talk, I forgot my computer. And he'd be like you know what you really need to learn your lesson, um? That would be so unkind, you know, so unkind.

Speaker 2:

You know, so we can fix and solve for our kids at times. That's what we do in a family. We show up for each other in those ways. But so much of the time. And you can just go on any college parent Facebook page, like the parents chat and read what the parents are writing about. Like how do I make sure I get on the? Get on my um the email thing so that anytime my professor emails my child, I'm also copied. No, it's too much. Oh yeah, that's nothing, don't read those. Pick any college and go to the parent Facebook page.

Speaker 2:

What we need to remember is that most of the time when we over-function, I'll email your teacher and make up a lie for you. So because you didn't get it done, um, or whatever it is. Anytime we over function, if we're really honest with ourselves, it's almost always because we it makes us feel better to do it. I over function because I feel less anxious because I'm handling it and I don't want to feel the uncomfortable feelings of my child being uncomfortable, yeah. So I really want to encourage you all. When it's like, do you over? Do you step in and fix or not? Do you step in and take over versus scaffolding and stretch? Ask yourself is me stepping in and doing this helping my child's development? Like, is it good for my child for me to do this this time, or am I doing that because it makes me feel better and it's not really in service of my child's development? It's a really important thing to reflect on no-transcript.

Speaker 2:

And sometimes when we're so overwhelmed, we know we need some reps around, some self-care and some regulation, but we're too tired to come up with any ideas.

Speaker 2:

So actually that's what I did with my team at the Center for Connection today is we made a long list of cues of safety and cues of regulation and things we can do to regulate, and I'm actually going to make something about it and put it on my Instagram, but it might be helpful to just have some post-it notes or a drop down menu or a note on your phone of like here are three things I know I can do, and you can even make like a two minute list, a five minute list and a 10 minute list.

Speaker 2:

I have 10 minutes. Okay, here are three things I know I can do so that in the moment you don't have to think about, because for me I used to have like regulation or play paralysis, meaning like my husband would have the kids or I'd be like, oh my gosh, I have an hour to myself or two hours, and then I didn't know what to do with myself. I spend like I'm trying to, then I'm trying to figure out, and then I'm like, oh my god, I only have 45 minutes now and I didn't even and I'm the time is gone and you know, then that's really upsetting. So then the guilt comes Right and then you're like I'm never gonna get an hour to myself, so I think that's a we'll call it what you said a minute ago preventative play for ourselves. Right Is coming up with some of those ideas.

Speaker 1:

Tina, thank you so much for taking your time again to chat with me. I absolutely loved our call or chat. The Way of Play is truly a book that I'm so grateful that you put together and that you have written for all of us. It's going to be that book that we're going to have on our bookshelf and keep coming back to, and I hope that parents see it that way. I do, and I think it's one of those essential ones. So thank you for the work that you put out there and the knowledge you share.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much. And, by the way, some of the strategies work on your significant other too, so hopefully it's a book that will be helpful in more than one way. But thank you so much for having me, cindy, and thank you for being a partner and doing this important work to help support parents in this important, important job that we all have to raise kids who thrive.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. The links to Tina's book will be for Canada and the US will be in the show notes. I will put your Instagram account and anything else you'd like me to add to that. Thank you to everyone who's listening. Please take a moment to rate the podcast and leave a review and subscribe on YouTube and we will see you next Monday. Thank you.