Curious Neuron Podcast

The power of connection in addiction treatment with Travis Goodman

• Cindy Hovington, Ph.D. • Season 7 • Episode 23

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In this episode of the Curious Neuron podcast, I chat with therapist Travis Goodman about the rising concerns around addiction. We explore the importance of compassionate curiosity when approaching conversations about addiction, the role of the nervous system in addiction, and the necessity of managing personal emotions when dealing with loved ones struggling with addiction. 

The conversation emphasizes the need for connection and vulnerability as antidotes to shame and isolation often associated with addiction. In this conversation, Travis Goodman, LMFT, discusses the critical role of connection in healing from addiction, particularly for men. He emphasizes the importance of building support systems, whether through therapy or community, and the need for safe spaces where men can express vulnerability and accountability. 

The discussion also covers navigating denial in loved ones struggling with addiction, setting boundaries, and the significance of changing the narrative around addiction to foster understanding and empathy.


Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/FDUyGUYBH5Q

Resources:

  1. Follow Travis on Instagram @integratedmanproject
  2. Join the next cohort of the Men's Collective with Travis here
  3. Private coaching or counselling with Travis here
  4. In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction here
  5. Editorial: Human Conn

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Thank you to our main supporters the Tanenbaum Open Science Institute at The Neuro and the ...

Speaker 1:

Hello, my dear friend, welcome to another episode of the Curious Neuron podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I'm your host. I'm a mom of three from Montreal, canada, and I have a PhD in neuroscience. My goal with Curious Neuron although it has shifted so many times over the years is truly to support parental well-being. I think that when we look at a child's healthcare and everything that we do to support that child and make sure that they have a really bright future, especially when it comes around mental health and emotional well-being, we cannot ignore parental well-being, and that's why, through Curious Neuron, I want to make sure that I bring the right people here on the podcast to support you in understanding your triggers, managing your stress, understanding and coping with your emotions, and today we are going to dig a little bit deeper into the emotional part and look at mental health. We're going to be talking about addiction, and I think it's important for us to do that, because I've been receiving a lot of emails and I've been seeing a lot of posts online. I follow these Facebook mom groups and parenting groups and many people have been questioning addiction and how to support their partner or how to recognize it in themselves, and so I wanted to make sure that I brought the right person to do that.

Speaker 1:

My guest today is Travis, and he's been on the podcast many times before. I needed to bring him into the conversation because, although the conversation isn't specifically about dads and men, when we talk about addiction, there is a trend towards men and dads, and so there will be a bit of a focus around that. But, whether or not you are a mom or a dad, if you have been noticing some behaviors in yourself or in your partner and you're questioning how do I approach this or what are the next steps for myself, this is an amazing conversation and, as always, everything we do is grounded in science, and I'm reading an article that's right in front of me now. I will have the link in the show notes for you. It's an editorial and it's called Human Connection as a Treatment for Addiction. I'm just going to read you the first paragraph, because this was kind of the seed, the article that I saw. That kind of led me to questioning what is support or what is the role of support in somebody's treatment for addiction. So it says the aim of this research topic human connection as a treatment for addiction is to bring together scholars from various fields to explore the question of whether intentionally increasing meaningful, caring interaction between people may reduce substance and or non-substance related addictive behaviors.

Speaker 1:

Previous research supports the role of social connection that it may play in the initiation and maintenance of addiction, in both animals and humans, and so the reason why I really wanted to focus on this is based on this study and many others, including the conversation I've had with Dr Bruce Perry, many months ago now, or years ago, that just keeps reminding us. Whether we've been through trauma, whether we are suffering with, you know, and struggling with our mental health right now, the power of connection cannot be ignored, and it might feel isolating in the moment, and you might feel like you are the only one going through this. If you cannot find one or two people that you truly trust that you can bring into this with you to support you, the stronger that little support group is, the better the treatment and the outcome is for you. But if you can't, travis has an amazing, amazing collective that he's building a group, that he's putting together a cohort. That he's already done before and he's doing it again. I encourage you to click on the link, just explore it, just reach out to him and start the conversation in terms of just not feeling alone anymore. That is an important part of our mental health, and, as Travis is going to talk about all of this, he talks about the story and the why behind all of it, so I don't want to keep you waiting. This was such an important conversation.

Speaker 1:

First, I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute as well as the McConnell Foundation for supporting the Curious Neuron podcast. Both of these organizations believe in the importance of science, as we do here at Curious Neuron, and so I'm grateful to have two organizations that are helping me continue the podcast. Also, without you, this podcast would not be possible. These two organizations look at metrics every single year, and so if you haven't done so yet and you've been listening to the podcast for more than three weeks, I'm giving you three weeks. Please take a moment to rate the podcast and leave a review, and you can send me an email at info at CuriousNeuroncom. Let me know that you left a rating and review and I will send you Meltdown Mountain for your kids. It's this visual that they can use, and it means so much to me that you actually took the time to review the podcast and even just rate it. It just I will send you that for free. But if you haven't done so, I know that it's a bother to click out, but really those three minutes that you're going to take is going to allow this podcast to continue. And if you can share it on social media, if this episode is something that you also have been hearing a lot about, share this episode across social media platforms. Send it to work and tell them. Put this in the next newsletter. Addiction is really important and here's a conversation that we can all have as a team, and so help us spread the word around the Curious Neuron podcast and the work that we are doing to support parental wellbeing.

Speaker 1:

And, if you haven't noticed yet, if you click the link for the Reflective Parent Club, that is the Curious Neuron program that we have. It used to be a membership. I have shut that down. It's no longer a membership, it is a three our kids, where they come in and we talk about emotions with them. There are activities for your kids that I create. There are reflection prompts for you. There's just a lot inside this program, but it's literally three months of you taking the time to reflect and think about things that are triggering you things that are bothering you, where you're getting stuck, and after these three months and the program and the courses that you take within this, you will notice a difference in how you perceive stress and how you manage interactions with other adults around you. I'm saying this because the parents that are part of this have noticed these differences. We are no longer just accepting people to come into the membership sorry, the club anymore. You have to book a meeting with me, and I want to make sure that this is a the right fit for you, because there are weekly meetings and, depending on where you are in the world, maybe the timing is off. So click the link below in the show notes. Even if you just want to chat with me, I'm okay with that, let's chat. These are 15 20 minute minute calls just to see where you are in your parenting journey. Book yourself a meeting and let's see if the Reflective Parent Club, this three month program, is a good fit for you.

Speaker 1:

All right, so, as I said, travis has been on the podcast before. Travis is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a a mind-body coach. He has been working for over 10 years and has worked with over a thousand clients, and now he is also the co-founder of the Integrated man Project, so please enjoy my conversation with Travis Goodman. Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Curious Drown Podcast. My name is Cindy, I am your host and, as promised, I'm here with Travis. Travis, welcome to. I don't know, I don't know how many times now, and that's a good thing, because you've been here a few times, and so I'm glad that you're back with us again today.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm stoked to be back on and I think, third, I don't know, I literally don't know.

Speaker 1:

I think it's third, no, maybe even maybe fourth. Maybe, but I mean, it's a good sign. It means I keep asking you to come back because we love you here, so it's okay yeah.

Speaker 2:

And I'm glad you reached out. I was like, oh, Sydney, because it's actually it's a double dip, I get to be on the podcast and catch up because it's been a while.

Speaker 1:

I know, which we did right before we had to.

Speaker 1:

You know, I do have so much respect for your work and the knowledge and stuff that you put out for us, and I would say that it's around since October that I started noticing an uptrend in posts on Facebook, where I follow a lot of mom groups and parenting groups and people questioning their own addiction.

Speaker 1:

They were questioning if they probably had an addiction. They were questioning addictions of their partners and what to do when they found out about something. And then I was also receiving questions myself, and so I reached out to you recently and I do think that it's something we need to talk about, because perhaps out there in the Cures Neuron community, there is a parent who has found out that something is going on in their home or with their partner, or maybe this is a partner. Somebody who's listening to this has realized that there might be some issues, and so I'm wondering first, is this something you've noticed? Is it something somebody had told me, that it's very common around the holidays, mental health issues and addictions to go up. Is this true? And then, is there more going on now?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean there's definitely, I think, stats that would and you could just look this up those that are listening but there's definitely stats that would tend to lean toward a rise in.

Speaker 2:

And you know, we'll use the term addiction loosely here, more of a broad term. I think most people are thinking you know classics, alcohol, drugs as the classic, you know typical addictions, but there's so many other types of addictions that as we begin to expand you can see how we can begin to over rely on really means of distraction to help ourselves kind of navigate and get through life, especially in the holidays, since holidays tend to have increase in stress, right, increase in expectations and, you know, financial stress to family stress, to I mean a whole bunch of and a lot of people have a lot of stuff going on a lot of stressors, and often you hear people talking about more of the difficulties around the holidays rather than kind of the joys and connections I mean I think, those are there, but it's more of like oh my gosh, I gotta see this and deal with this and that and family members you have to get with.

Speaker 2:

You know it's hard, yeah it is hard, and so I think there's definitely an increase for sure, either anecdotally that I've heard just around, but also there's definitely some statistics that would back up that claim of an increase in use.

Speaker 1:

So if somebody is listening to this and has a ninkling of you know, an idea that maybe something's happening in their, in their home, with their partner even, maybe even with a teenager, right, but noticing patterns, what are the first steps when it comes to having a conversation with someone? And, like you said before, even just using the word addiction? Loosely right, because if you go full force with the first conversation, I'm assuming there's pushback. So how do you begin this conversation?

Speaker 2:

I mean a few things that I would share, and from you know, not only my clinical background as a trained therapist, licensed marriage family therapist, practicing for 10 years in the state of California, along with some training I've done over the past few years to the Polyvagal Institute treating trauma and addiction from a polyvagal lens and I'll speak more about that in a minute. Um, about kind of what that is. Um, but essentially, if if you have an inkling of an addiction going on with a family member or maybe even yourself is, I think, first and foremost, there's so much stigma, uh, a lot of negative and shame around an addiction, especially like when we think alcohol and drugs, porn addiction, things like that, and I think to some degree it's been shaped by the medical system and how we used to view addiction as primarily like a brain disease right the brain disease model, which is a particular model of addiction.

Speaker 2:

seeing essentially the long story short of is the brain's broken, right, you have a broken brain, you know essentially, or you have this genetic component that you, you know, you're kind of screwed and I'm definitely paraphrasing.

Speaker 1:

But I get it yeah.

Speaker 2:

You get it and those that are listening. Please, you can look up what's the brain disease model and you can read about it and I think because of that there's come a lot of shame weight to it as well as like kind of a stuckness because, like, what do I do? And now there's been a lot of we all know of aa and na and I think for a lot of people that's helped thousands of people to get support. But even within the model itself, I think there's some degree of um, I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna get too in the thick, thick, uh, too thick in the weeds of the 12-step program, because I think there's a lot of good from 12-step. I think it doesn't need an update.

Speaker 2:

Personally and this is my personal preference and opinion but I think in the model itself is like you essentially are broken, right that you you're, you know, powerless, and I think there's some power by the way, of admitting that. But coming in that I'm always just kind of addict, like once an actor is an addict, I have a broken brain. I think this problematic rather than I think a more holistic lens is. We need to one get away from the shame messaging and kind of approach it with more compassionate curiosity.

Speaker 2:

I think the biggest thing is people that are struggling with some level of addiction have so much shame and fear around, being found out, about being known, and are afraid of rejection, afraid of being hurt, afraid of being isolated, afraid of any number of things. And so I think the first thing is if you're yourself or might have inkling is starting with compassionate curiosity of trying to understand not so much the addiction itself of like you know, um, you're drinking your, you have your problem, but why? What's the why behind it? What led this person to using something? What must be going in their life as to what this substance and I'm using that loosely substance is doing for them? What's the benefit? And if we approach it from a compassionate curiosity lens, we begin to open the door away from shame and distancing and isolation and we're really increasing really the need for most people's connection, and Dr Gabor Montes talked a lot about that. Like the opposite of addiction is connection. He's done a lot of work and he's Canadian as well. I believe he's Canadian, dr Gabor.

Speaker 2:

Montes so there you go, so he's got a great book. I think in the realm of hungry ghosts it's a thick read, but a great book.

Speaker 1:

I haven't read that one. I'm going to write it down.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think it's in the realm of hungry ghosts and I'll get back to you on that, but I'm pretty sure that's a great book on addiction thick, thick book.

Speaker 2:

but as most of his books are um, but compassionate curiosity is the way to start and I think and that's like anything, it's the same thing with this whole podcast is like a lot of us with, as parents, reaching our kids. It's like we're approaching your kids with compassionate curiosity, versus judgment and trying to adhere to rules and expecting obedience in all times. No, but compassionate curiosity opens the door to better understand what led my child to act out quote unquote or have a tantrum or not listen or whatever. Same thing with those that might be struggling with some level of addiction.

Speaker 1:

I love that you've approached it this way, because those are the values of Curious Neuron, and so I think it applies for whether we're having this conversation with our kids or our partner. And you're right about the shame, and I think that the questions or the people I've spoken with, or the questions I've received it's almost like they're saying what's wrong with me.

Speaker 1:

And then I do think that when we look at it as the sort of lifelong sentence of, like I am an addict and so I am broken, and the way that you've said it, it really reminds us that we have to kind of shift that away, because feeling that way is very heavy and so if we can at least approach it in a way of trying to get to the why, and I think, as a reminder to everyone who's listening, that first conversation might not lead to that answer right, like it might take a lot of these conversations.

Speaker 1:

What would be difficult, I imagine, is, as you are trying to have these conversations and maybe if you are trying to do it from a very compassionate place, that you're getting pushback because of the stigma around it and the shame. What if you're being lied to and you could tell right? What if there are certain things that are happening in the home, if they are drinking, if there are drugs involved, even if there's an addiction to a phone or a gambling problem, right, it could lead to very severe consequences within the family. And so at what point do you push a little bit harder or say I've had enough? How does it work in terms of that sort of place?

Speaker 2:

And that's a great question, and the classic answer I would give is it depends.

Speaker 1:

I get it yeah.

Speaker 2:

I wish there was a one size fits all for this and this would be very delicate and I think if I'm focusing on the person who's struggling with the addiction, whatever that might be phone addiction, alcohol, drugs, pornography, gambling you know there's a lot of types of things we could use food right.

Speaker 1:

Right yeah.

Speaker 2:

Work right. People can overwork. Yeah is there's a story, and the better we understand the narrative as to how the person got there, the better is we're going to be able to kind of offer support and empathy and compassion. At the same time, the caveat is dependent upon the person who might be struggling. There could also and often is very real, negative, painful impact it could be having on the family now, and so there could be tension there, there could be a lot of betrayal and hurt, and so there's a lot of layers to this.

Speaker 2:

Um one, if you're the person that's being somehow harmed or having a negative impact because of your spouse, partner spouses or child's use of addiction, or you're themselves, it's like there are layers and understanding the story is like I mean, this is what I do as a clinician or coach is I have to know the story. It's not just out of the blue. They're all of a sudden stuck in the throes of addiction. It never starts that way. I've never heard anyone in the research would show this. They're like, hey, one day I just have an addiction problem to whatever out of the blue would show this. Like hey, one day I just have an addiction problem to whatever out of the blue, everything's fine, I have a great life, and boom and throws a bit of addiction. No, there's a narrative and there's often layers and it goes way, often way back to early childhood or adolescence or young adulthood, where something or some things begin to happen in someone's life and this is kind of from a polyvagal model to kind of kind of begin to understand what polyvagal theory is really.

Speaker 2:

Polyvagal theory is understanding the nervous system, right, Poly is many right and vagal, ie vagus. The polyvagus, right, the vagus nerve is essentially what regulates your nervous system fight, flight, freeze, shutdown, right, and also our calm state of parasympathetic. And so this vagus nerve, if you look at it from the polyvagal perspective, addiction really can be understood as an adaptive coping mechanism that comes from the nervous system's response to lack of safety or unresolved stress. So if you think addiction in terms of that lens, that it's really the nervous system's job, which is often subconscious, trying to navigate a lack of safety or unresolved stress, you begin to see addiction issues as adaptive, meaning it's trying, it's the, it's rooted in the body's attempt to try to self-regulate or escape being overwhelmed or dysregulated. And so when you see it that way, you could understand why someone might be using, why they might be going to this and also maybe, once you understand their whole story, you might begin to see when it began and then how it began to manifest even more and be used more by other experiences, and also you know whether you're the person who's impacted by it or the person using. Is like it's going to give perspective for both parties, because it's more than just a brain disease, more than just they're broken. It's like there's a reason, it's adaptive, our body does its best to survive.

Speaker 2:

Now, again, the other side is it can be very problematic. So it's often these two narratives that are happening at the same time One, the very real impact it's having on the individual or the family, as well as this kind of story, this narrative that's been unfolding, and we can't really separate the two. We need to understand both. I think what happens is often we focus on the damage being done now, because we're feeling it now. We're feeling the pain now, which is very real and for some families very like hey, someone's addiction is probably so bad they lost their job and they can't afford now the whole family. So it could be very, very real. But if we separate the narrative, then in a way, we don't understand the human behind it.

Speaker 2:

Right, and if we just only look at the narrative and don't look at the real impact, then again we're problematic because we're saying, okay, I understand the story, empathy, but keep going versus what's really going on, because what's really needing is the person needs other tools or awareness, understanding of connection to more effectively regulate their state of dysregulation.

Speaker 2:

And again, the whole idea you talk about with like emotions we've been on before is like, hey, when the brain's in dysregulated state, we need to help the brain get to a state of calm, or calm enough to teach. Right, as a parent, a parent, right, if we try to parent my kid or discipline my kid in the throes of a tangent of emotional overwhelm and dysregulation, right, it's not going to go very well. Right, we could, we could throw the book at them, we could be right, yeah, but it's not going to, it's not going to sink in or really be that effective. If anything, it might even lead them to more dysregulation. And the same applies for those that are struggling with addiction. Is that we can be right, but if we don't understand the why behind it, if anything, it might cause more shame and pain and I'm oh, sorry.

Speaker 1:

I'm assuming that's also the hard part, because, if I use the example that you just said, as a parent, when your child is dysregulated, odds are you are as well, because something has happened and you're about to lose it, and so you're. You are trying really hard and I always tell the parent start with yourself first, right, like find a way to regulate yourself, would you say. The same thing applies to a partner, let's say, who just caught a partner who you know has gambled all the money away. Or they find out that they've been using drugs and that's why they're not home and that why they.

Speaker 1:

whatever it is right, something very serious right do you start with yourself, because at that moment you will attack, you will label, you will name, you will you know.

Speaker 2:

Do you step away and say not today, like let's, let's sit with this yeah, yeah, and again, that's such a hard that's, that's a hard thing to answer with one, with one answer again, because there's the very real, you know, to keep it simple betrayal that the individual is dealing with, and so it's going to hurt and, depending upon that person's story of, have they been betrayed before?

Speaker 2:

Has there been a history there with this partner, other partners, family, and so there's going to be their own narrative of a sense of betrayal or being lied to which is going to cause a rift, lack of trust. So there's going to be this shock and so we're going to want to like either that person might even shut down, like come out, like they might feel overwhelmed and be in shock, or they'll fight because they're like what the heck?

Speaker 2:

and go in or cause a lot of anxiety again going to the nervous system. Same thing. The individual is going through a state of dysregulation themselves fight, flight, freeze, and so if you're finding out, I mean one of the yeah, a really unproductive thing would be to go in in the throes of your dysregulated state because it's gonna you're most likely they're gonna cause any more dysregulating. Get stuck in shame. Then you guys are just gonna cycle. Now I understand why we do that because we're afraid and that whole fight flight thing kicks in, but we want to take a step back as best. We can know that we're, we have this hurt.

Speaker 1:

And also, how do I?

Speaker 2:

approach it as best I can in a more grounded state, which is not an easy thing to do because you're feeling this pain and so again, just like with kids, is as our. We got to do our best to kind of stay within somewhat of a window that we can be somewhat grounded, still feeling the pain and the distress and the hurt, but not dysregulated ourselves, because that it just is not going to be productive.

Speaker 2:

I guarantee you it won't be, Now it's not to say we were not going to have emotion. You're going to have feelings about it You're going to have emotions about it. Don't suppress, yeah, don't suppress, yeah, don't suppress.

Speaker 2:

But we want to be in a state where we're at least like we have a footing on solid ground, that we can speak about our emotions rather than being ruled by our emotional states or our thoughts in the moment, and that's not always easy thing to do, and so you might need to do a little bit more work on your own, like take some breaths, take a pause, write stuff down, talk to a friend, like something where you're kind of able to get some of this release first and then leading up to a conversation, because the goal, of course, would be to like, how do we navigate this and heal Right? I mean, ideally the goal would be hey, what the heck's going on with my partner or my kid? I love them, I want the best for them.

Speaker 2:

Wow, this really shocked me. It really hurts. I can't. You know, I have my own questions, but I ultimately love and care for this person. So we're going to have to probably heal this rift somehow and hopefully, if at all and I know that's not always the case for everybody, depending on the story at this and deal with the betrayal and be able to be raw like, hey, this did hurt and how do we heal this and repair, as well as how do I offer support, if at all, and get the care needed for my loved one? And so it's this duality thing which is really. It's a tension in a way that you have to live with, and that's, if I'm honest, a hard thing to do.

Speaker 1:

It's not easy, and I'm really happy that you brought up the sort of aspect of the person who finds out right, Not the person who has the addiction, because I can't even imagine in that situation the betrayal that you feel. And if you have kids and maybe now you understand certain things and it wasn't clear to you before. Um, but now you're also thinking there's kids in this story, right, it's?

Speaker 1:

not just you and I anymore. And and now, how do we deal with this? Depending on what it is, um, you know, and and even just uh, you know, maybe I'm thinking about more serious things but even just the phone addiction where the couple has disconnected and I I had, you know, I I've heard of this before where it's like a year passes and two years pass and then you're like, hey, we haven't really connected, I don't know who you are anymore, and now it's too late, right? And so I think it's really important for us to like, like you said, it could be food, it could be anything serious or less serious that still has a similar impact in terms of addiction. So I get that.

Speaker 1:

You said something that was interesting to me. You brought up talk to a friend, I think, about arguments I do have with my husband and you know we have our go-to person, you know, and I'll call my friend and be like okay, so this happened and this is what I said, and she's like, yeah, you were wrong, and I don't listen to it when he says it, but then when she says, I'm like, oh, you're right, I need to go back.

Speaker 1:

It's like my, my journal that I talked to like out loud you know, and it really um, it's this one person that we, that I trust, that I couldn't go to and who will put me in my place, Like if.

Speaker 1:

I need to be put in my place and I can come back, and you know we'll repair that. But, um, when it comes to this situation, I would assume that it would feel good for the person that finds out to kind of have an outlet, but then that shame and guilt that you spoke about at the beginning, I mean, I would feel that this is something you don't want to share with anybody, but that would make it make it even heavier, because you're pretending everything's okay While it feels like your whole world is shattered right, like, how do you, what can somebody do? Do you recommend that we do speak to somebody? I don't know? I don't even know what the question is right, because I'm picturing myself in that situation and I can't imagine what I would do.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I think again with the amount of shame around it, because often we're masking and pretending things are fine and it's hidden, right, right, and so there's a again really tremendous amount of shame when it's found out or being known and often the fear around that is being rejected, being disconnected, being cut off. Um, if people knew this about me, right, they wouldn't love me, they would they would want.

Speaker 2:

And so all these, these narratives again around shame is such a strong emotional, mental, physiological combatant, so to speak, that will keep us isolated. That's really, I think, shame's purpose, and I'm kind of quoting from other authors on this that shame's purpose is essentially to isolate and destroy, is to keep us disconnected. And, oddly enough, the opposite of addiction again to quote Gabor Monte is connection, like we need connection, and it's only going to come through. And even you know Brene Brown's talked about this, right that opposite of shame same thing is is is being known, is is connection, is vulnerability and authenticity.

Speaker 2:

Now, it's really hard, and if I'm speaking to men, that's even really big, especially around what it means to be a man and being masculine and strong is getting having things figured out yourself and not needing support. And again, I'm kind of speaking to the trope of, like unhealthy masculinity is that this idea of like you don't need support, do it on your own. If you need support, you're weak, right. And so I think that's another layer for a lot of men too is not only the shame of being known, but also what I'm From the polyvagal perspective.

Speaker 2:

The nervous system would say and this goes to probably a lot of the work you've spoken on too with the brain is that being known like nervous system to nervous system creates co-regulation which can create soothing to the nervous system of being known and accepted and still held up and accountable, which can be hard, which can be hard, but there's this connection piece which can help calm the nervous system down, like, hey, I'm not rejected because the fear I'm saying I'm in this state of dysregulation, if I'm known, then I'm going to get rejected, so I'm just going to shut down and numb out versus press into safe connection, right, obviously, again, I think we want to be choosy with who we open with.

Speaker 2:

Like you said, we have a friend or two that we might be able to do that with. Like you said, we have a friend or two that we might be able to do that with and that person creates this kind of open, safe enough that I can show up raw and authentic. Be accepted, known and challenged is really important, and I know that for a lot of guys.

Speaker 2:

I would say they don't have that kind of relationship with men. I would say a lot of men that I've worked with they don't talk to anybody. I don't have a guy I could talk to. I don't talk to my spouse about this, I don't you know, I don't have guy friends that could talk about this. A lot of men struggle in isolation, which then ramps up addiction issues even more because there's no one to talk to. And the more they get disconnected, the more sucked in they get to kind of being more alone and isolated and pulled away. Because that shame. The fear grows, right, it like gets stronger the more they kind of believe and live that narrative and don't reach out to people of being known. It becomes harder, right, because now it's I got to share more, I got to open it more, and that is overwhelming to me. So I'm just going to check out even more right.

Speaker 1:

So then, how, thinking about that, and if there are dads out there that are listening, or moms that have are trying to support their partner right now in an addiction how knowing that connection is so important, what are the baby steps to that? You know and I say baby steps because I know it's not going to be about reaching out to a friend tomorrow, right. What does that scaffolding or that build up to trying to make a connection look like if you haven't been doing that for so long?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and and it. I guess it depends on I'm sorry, it depends on the the level of how strong is this? You know what point? What kind of support are they needing?

Speaker 2:

Um, like mild support to pretty significant, like a lot of support, I think, if you're the spouse of one or the parent of one and this is again the hard thing because you're dealing with a very close hurt, again, that does need to be acknowledged and healed if it can, but also letting that person know that they are loved and cared for, that we want the best for them.

Speaker 2:

At the same time as a person continues to go into addiction, here's the very real impact it's having, and so being honest about that, but also knowing that as a spouse or parent, you probably aren't enough to offer support for the person, that they will often need more support outside of you, that they will often need more support outside of you, Like having you as supportive person will be helpful, but also you got to do some healing work. So it's not always going to be easy for the spouse or the child, because they're also dealing with the very real way they've harmed you, whether intentionally or unintentionally. And so there's like everything from you know, support systems, support groups, men's groups, things that focus on offering and creating spaces for men. I mean, really it's about creating safe safety and safe enough and helping. We need more environments that are allowing that. And again, speaking to men cause I do a lot of men's work is how do we engage more for men that they can show up and be understood, be listened to? They?

Speaker 2:

can show up and be understood, be listened to, be accepted, as well as challenged to grow and to challenge and accountable. Right, Because a lot of men need accountability and to be able to show up and have that accountability is where a lot of growth happens. Right, because, again, it's only through connection. Relationship and that's what I've seen in men's work I've done over the years with different addictions or traumas to varying degrees is through relationship with other men and having a place and places to show up. It's never done in isolation. I don't think the data would. There's no data research I would show that shows the power of isolated healing by yourself, with no one else around you. It's going to come from connection.

Speaker 1:

And I think that's a great segue sort of into your work and because what you're bringing up is maybe there isn't a friend in that person's environment or family member that they trust enough. But there are people out there that maybe have gone through the same thing and can support you in that. And there's a big power in this community of strangers, sometimes right, because you don't really know that person, they don't know your friends, they don't know your family, and so that sort of fear of them finding out is gone, it's lifted. What is, I guess, like in terms of the work that you were doing? What is the difference between, I guess, the community that you're building with care and the cohorts that we were talking about before I started recording?

Speaker 1:

But I'm curious to know what would that look like in terms of comparing that to therapy, because there are some men out there, just because we're specifically talking about them now, but anybody right, who might not be open to the idea of therapy and say there's nothing wrong with me, I'm fine, you caught me, it was a moment of weakness and I'll get through this right. I'll be able to get myself out of this. I'll stop the addiction. I'll stop, you know, using. I'll stop drinking, I won't gamble anymore, whatever it is. But with what you said, we need to find a support system, and so how is that different in a community, let's say, versus therapy for someone? How is that different in a community, let's say versus?

Speaker 2:

therapy for someone, yeah, and I mean, therapy has its place, for sure, and I think it'd be definitely effective for a lot of people and not everybody, and it depends on the place they're in but what therapy can offer.

Speaker 2:

One thing is that there's a connection to someone else that is listening, that is best, non-judgment, right, and creating a space that they can show up authentically. So that's the power of therapy is that you know they may be able to talk with it first time and not being totally judged, right, and I could just be authentic and listen to. And so, because you know, obviously the thing with therapists is I'm not attached to the story of their impact on my life, so it's easier for me to be more, to have more reflective, listening and neutral and not be so charged because it's not my spouse, right. So it's, it's much easier, but that could. There'll be a lot of power there because I, that person, is not responsible for the impact on me, right? If they're seeing me as a therapist, I don't have to be responsible. So there's like a power differential there which can be very helpful.

Speaker 2:

Now, also, groups we all know the classic, if it's, you know, alcohol and drugs. There's not again, there's 12-step models. There's other models out there too that are not 12-step, that can also create community in group-based support systems. There's different types that can offer and different times they meet. And this is something we've been working together last year and kind of really building this year is a network of men and this kind of greater thing. Again, we're calling the Men's Collective. If you want to know more about it, you just go to menscollectiveco. But essentially we have ongoing support biweekly where we meet and it's more coaching, but we still go deep. I mean it sounds. Coaching actually goes quite deep and the courses we've developed go quite deep and get very vulnerable, get very authentic.

Speaker 2:

But it's also around teaching core skills and it's all about, first and foremost, connection with other men about creating safe space, about creating vulnerability, but it occurs through the relationship with other people, not just me and Pierre, but other men showing up, and we've curated around a lot of things that men are struggling with in our day and day. A lot of dads are struggling with today's ideas around what it means to be a masculine man Like. What does it actually look like in today's world? You know, what are our values as men? What, what are our priorities and how do we derive meaning? Now, right, becoming a parent can be such a big transition of like. Okay, like I was successful before with my business or whatever, and now I have kids and I'm finding it harder and I'm not performing like I used to, or maybe I was really close with my spouse, but now I'm not feeling that, and so what happens is I start to kind of lean into addictions to deal with all this change, rather than how do I you know, head it face on understand what, again, one of my values and priorities? Um, what's my story around what it means to be a man and a dad? You know what has been that narrative? Because we talk about that in our course. We talk about understanding emotions and being having emotional intelligence and the power of that and the nervous system, of why we need to understand, as men, like our nervous system, because it has so much information it provides us on a daily basis. And are we tapping into that? Or are we kind of mindlessly navigating and just dealing with all just stressors all day long? And so we're creating this kind of space where we're teaching men skills by, you know, short teachings of science based kind of understanding, with integrating this into our day-to-day life.

Speaker 2:

Whether we're an entrepreneur uh, you know, we work a nine to five job or we're a dad or whatever we're doing with very practical, like tools they can use, cause men need tools, we, okay, what do I do if I don't do this?

Speaker 2:

Why, if I, if I'm feeling dysregulated, instead of going and drinking or numbing out on TV for hours, or social media is a big one, right, people just need to scroll now for hours because they don't know what to do to deal with all their stress and dysregulation.

Speaker 2:

So they need real skills. So we're teaching things too as well no-transcript addictions as a means to cope, because they're feeling overwhelmed and or they're feeling like, again, isolated, there's no community for them to be connected to and again their model growing up might have been not a very good one, and so they're just kind of just doing the best they can, and sometimes the best they can has found them in some pretty big holes and so to get pulled out of that is through connection, and that's been the biggest thing that we've heard reported back from our men in our collective and our cohorts has been not only the teachings and skills we teach and awareness, but has really been the connection with other men across the you know, across, really the U S and even Canada, is wow, I'm not the only one.

Speaker 2:

Again, it dispels that isolation and shame. Wow, I could show up and be known and not like cast aside as like a defect Right, I could be supported. But I'm also challenged, which is important. I'm challenged to grow. I'm challenged to change for the betterment of not only myself, but for my family and for my community.

Speaker 1:

That has been the most. That phrase I'm not the only one has been the most powerful phrase that I heard in the past 10 years. With Curious Neuron. I started this as a blog, started the podcast after and social media and that just comes up time and time again when parents, from the smallest things of yelling at your child To very serious things like addiction we often feel like we are the only ones going through this and that sort of those thoughts that go through our mind Like why am I messing up all the time? Why can't I just get this right? You know, I think of Dr Julie Smith's book. She talks about thoughts, you know, and how our thoughts are not facts, but in those moments when we put ourselves down, they're facts to us. Right, like I am an idiot for doing this, I'm not smart enough, whatever, it is like we are so hard on ourselves.

Speaker 1:

And just I needed to highlight that because if somebody is listening to this and feels like they are the only one. You are not. No matter how small or how big the problem is, you are not alone, and you're right. That sense of community is what allows us to see that you're not. Somebody else can relate to some aspect of what you're going through and that feels good. It kind of lessens the load on your shoulders and it helps. So I'm really happy that you said that it just keeps coming up.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, I agree, I agree with you yeah.

Speaker 1:

So you know, I'm going to put the link to what you just talked about in your program because I do think that you know the men's collective is something that needs to be out there more. Some people have reached out to me. I don't know about the States, but I know here in Canada waitlists are long and so you find out that you are struggling. Not you find out, but you, you know. You say, okay, it's time for me to you know, do the work.

Speaker 1:

And then you call somebody a therapist, and they say well, we're not even taking anyone anymore.

Speaker 2:

The wait list is so long.

Speaker 1:

No, there's some places not even adding to their wait list anymore.

Speaker 1:

And so it's serious. It means that there's not immediate help. You talked about connection, and I see that now as a safeguard, right, in terms of don't think that you can do this on your own. Find yourself, albeit small, but anything, anyone internal or external, from your surrounding. I'm just kind of summarizing so that people you know, just to make sure I understood everything.

Speaker 1:

But what if I don't know if I brought this up at the beginning, but just a few last questions just to make sure I've covered everything? But like what if somebody keeps saying, like there isn't, there isn't a problem, I'm fine? Uh, it's a moment, right, maybe somebody passed away, a parent passed away, and that person is struggling now to kind of get themselves back up on their feet. Um, maybe there was a big stress, uh, with the new child, right, coming into their lives and now they're afraid financially and so they're trying to make more money through gambling. Right, there could be anything that comes up. But what if you've? You're listening to this and you're like you know what? I've had this conversation many times and they keep saying they're fine, but then I see the counts going down, I see that they're not coming home, or they're coming home and they're drunk and it's very serious.

Speaker 1:

So I know you said coming from a place of compassion. At what point does and I think now I'm speaking as the person who approaches that you know their partner. At one point you might give up and say this is who they are, right. What sort of conversation should you be having with yourself if you feel stuck in this cycle and there's a child there? And for my own work, what I also want to highlight is ACEs, right, and so these adverse childhood events, somebody with an addiction, somebody with mental health issues not getting the help. There might be any sort of abuse in the home as a consequence to an addiction. I worry about the environment that that child is in. So if you are somebody who's stuck in this cycle, what are you asking yourself?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So there's I mean, a lot, a lot of ways that you know, I guess, to take it from the story that have I've tried bringing stuff up before and the person's still in denial, like I guess that that's the example we're using, cause, depending upon you know, I think again, if you start off with like compassionate curiosity, like if you're grounded as best you can, you know, one checking expectations, that you can't really fix this person, it's their own journey, right, you're trying your best to create like a safe space for conversation, like trying to really model like, hey, this is like I feel scared, or like I'm you know, I'm hurt when you do this particular behavior. Like, or I'm scared when I see you struggling and I'm here to support find another way. Right, if you're doing all those and you've been having this and definitely need to set boundaries with love, it's like, hey, I want to be here for you and I'm paraphrasing, I want to. At the same time, I can't support this particular behavior that harms me or the children. So let's work a way to find a way forward.

Speaker 2:

And if you're having that conversation, the person is still in denial and it's plainstakingly obvious.

Speaker 2:

Well then, that's when sometimes you have to ask yourself like, hey, what's the change I'm willing to do? You know, if it's putting kids, kids in harm's way, obviously okay. Then I might need to. I might need to have pretty something radical, get support from family. I might need to move out with the kids or I might need to, depending on what it is like. I might need to do something different because I'm having these conversations and I've tried, you know, this kind of step of like all the things we talked about and they're still in denial, denial, denial, and it's getting worse, worse, worse, worse, worse. That's when it's like I do love you and care for you and I'm unwilling, right To keep doing this back and forth and pretend it's not here Cause it's hurting our family, like we have no money, or you lost your job again, or you're raging when you're drunk and you're hurting us, like I have to protect now, like I got to go, and I know that's a huge, by the way, decision to do that.

Speaker 2:

So me saying this for some people is like that's not an easy thing to make to change right, and so there could be a lot of fear there of like well, what if I do that and they get worse?

Speaker 2:

I mean, there's so many, that's why is there such a there's a lot of layers to addiction, even the fear of family members or friends finding out like this is what your home not changing. What are you willing to do for you and what's okay for you? And then, if you have kids involved, okay, well, what's the degree of the harm it's having to them? It's not you anymore and so and setting. That is one of the hardest things but one of the most loving things to do, like to change and say I'm unwilling to do this anymore, whatever this is, and I need to do something different. Or until you do like not an ultimatum, but I want to work with you. At the same time, in the interim, I'm unwilling to do this. I'm unwilling to stay in this house as you're raging at our kids and letting you scream and break things you know, as an example. So when you do that, here's what I'm doing. I'm taking the kids to my mom's or dad's, or we're getting a hotel and that's what we're doing, or I'm kicking you out as you do that, right In the meantime, till you cool off. So it's kind of like being very clear, very like love and boundaried right, and then from there you know that's the next step.

Speaker 2:

Who knows what's going to happen if the person continues being in denial, okay then what? Because those are ongoing conversations so it's hard to tell someone exactly to do. Of course, If that's you, definitely getting some support yourself would be good Professionally from a friend or someone who understands addiction really well would be good for you to get your own support too, so you could have like another person to kind of think with you, because it's going to be so emotionally charged if you're trying to also deal with this by yourself and not and I understand trying to keep things private, and that's good, and we don't want to just like spread stuff to get you know like a wildfire to people, but even be choosy with who you talk to, who can really hold it in confidence and support you but also be frank with you too, like like you and like I have friends that do that too, who could be very blunt, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Cause.

Speaker 2:

we need that Cause sometimes like we cause, you know, we could get so in our mind and we're missing something and something that's a simple thing, and we're like, oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that. You're right, but even having someone in our corner who could hear us and offer some suggestions can really help us. Like, hey, how do I support my husband or spouse or wife or whoever my kid is doing this? Like, how do I do that? And so having someone else who could really help think is going to be helpful. Um, cause, yeah, there's a lot of weight in all of this. And so, um, that's what I would say is you might have to really change things if the person's not changing. And that's in that, because you might have to really change things if the person's not changing. And that could be a lot of grief too and sad.

Speaker 2:

If the person stays stuck, and it is a sad thing and it can be a very painful thing. It could also feel, I think, for some, like they're choosing the addiction over you. And I think another way to reframe that is I don't think they're choosing addiction over you. I think they're just that stuck in their own narrative and story that they're buying into the lie that there really isn't a way out. I think we personalize that because we love this person and we blame ourselves that if we were only strong enough or better whatever, we could fix them. And the reality is this person has a lot of story here before us or around us that they're navigating as best they can and at the same time they're very stuck. They're navigating as best they can and at the same time they're very stuck, and this stuckness might've been around for a long time, even before you came around. And so having perspective too, that this is not just about you, but it's about something else going on or other things that they're doing their best to kind of survive and they've been stuck in this way of doing things and their nervous system is kind of also stuck in this kind of automatic way of doing things.

Speaker 2:

So sometimes just telling someone to change is not even enough, because some of it's so subconscious and like repeated in the brain that it almost it's muscle memory, and changing takes time and and they have to trust a different process and they have their fears too. Well, what if I do this and it gets worse? I mean, there's so many layers here and so really I think the core of this is that you, as the individual who found out, you need support and connection with other people, and the person who has the addiction also needs connection. I mean, the theme here is that we need people. We need relationships that are supportive, that are safe enough, that can challenge us, that can listen to us, that can encourage us, that can hold us accountable on both ends, and that's such a big need, and I know for some of us we're isolated families, right? I don't talk to anybody, right, and so that's. I think one of the biggest things we need to solve is creating more spaces for that to grow.

Speaker 1:

Given just to end this conversation, but given, you know, I think about when I talk to parents and trying to encourage moving away from labels with their kids. I think about what we hear about. Like you know, I'm an addict, are you, would you say? What would the? What should we change in terms of the narrative? Right, because maybe this person now they're like you know, I, they got, they get caught or whatever it is, and they're like, yeah, I'm an addict, that's who I am, it's that's me. Should we be moving away from that and trying to help them with that sort of language?

Speaker 2:

No, I mean I wouldn't try and fix that right now. I think if that's a helpful stepping stone for them to help change.

Speaker 1:

So it's okay when it comes to that too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I wouldn't try and overwrite that. I mean everyone's got a journey. I think for some people that identification really has helped save their life and change. Now I would argue, if I had them long enough, say I think I would want to change it with them and make it more. I want to deepen that a bit more and move away from just a personalization to say more about the dysregulation Right, deepen that a bit more and move away from just a personalization to say more about the dysregulation, that you're not an addict, that you're a human being who found a means to try to regulate your nervous system and pain and suffering and trauma whatever through the use of addiction. But I'm not going to get stuck in semantics with someone and try and convince them otherwise, because I'd also don't want to take away if that was something that was life-giving. Think of like a 12-step model. For some people 12 steps really saved their life.

Speaker 2:

And if that's what they choose to believe, great, but the reality is what they found in 12-step was connection with other people. So that's why I think it's so successful is that, while there's some things I would like to change about 12-step model personally and kind of update it a bit like more modern brain science understanding of the nervous system outside of an old brain disease model that came out in the whatever forties or whenever it came out.

Speaker 2:

Um, that they haven't updated it yet, that like I'm not going to try to like take that from them at this point, cause they are getting some of it naturally in the process. But I think a refresh would be nice to to be updated with the new science behind the brain and the body and the body to kind of get away from that disease model, I think would be good. But again I'm I think about, like in the movies right Of these, like what did they call it?

Speaker 1:

When you get the family together and you have an intervention right. So I think about that and it's like the first step to like getting you to realize, but it's the movies, right. And so in real life, does that even happen? I don't even know, but there has to be?

Speaker 2:

I think they do. I don't know how. I mean, I don't think interventions are happening left and right, but they, they do occur. But yeah, I think I wouldn't rob someone of language right now. I think if it's helping them right now, go down a path of healing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I would just let it be for now and just really focus on how do I support this person and understand? And again, I think the biggest thing is every person I've talked to that's had addiction issues and I've talked with many there's a story. There's always a story. There's always this narrative that comes together and when you understand that you can really you can have more empathy and understanding and still hold the person to accountability of the impact that they're having right now, um cause.

Speaker 2:

Often that person is needing that, they're needing compassion, um, they're needing empathy and love, as well as challenge and saying, hey, this is, at the same time, this is hurting, like this does occur and this can no longer happen, like this is something that, or I'm going to change it this way, I'm going to hold myself accountable to whatever that is, because I have to do that as my boundary for you, which is also a very loving act, not shaming them, not belittling but hey, I'm doing this because I love you and I'm doing these things because this is actually tearing us, or tearing the family apart, rather than building connecting. Like this behavior is actually leading to more disconnection than connection.

Speaker 2:

And so that's the thing is like it's all. The goal is about connected safety.

Speaker 2:

And so, if that's what we're aiming at, how do we organize our life and our support around that idea, rather than just kind of isolation? So it's, this is a really, you know, big topic, sticky topic, and there's a lot of stories and layers with everyone you know all the people that are listening to this like there could be from a mild to severe and like this, like stories in between, and so you know, because it is like there's, it takes time.

Speaker 2:

And so I would say give yourself time and don't rush it, don't expect change overnight, one day at a time, and then get support through your work and through other support systems.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I do think that and I hope actually that this conversation has at least given everybody some sort of like foundation to have the conversation and where to begin and how to move forward with this. I truly appreciate your knowledge and every conversation that you and I have had, so thank you, and I'll be reaching out to you when I have another question. Thanks, siddhi. Thank you so much, travis Bye.