Curious Neuron Podcast

Understanding and Managing Emotional Triggers for Mindful Parenting with Dr. Sarah Bren

• Cindy Hovington, Ph.D. • Season 7 • Episode 19

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Ever wondered how your own thoughts, feelings, and behaviours impact your parenting? Prepare to gain a deeper understanding of your own emotional triggers and responses as we delve into the complexities of parenting with clinical psychologist Dr. Sarah Bren. This episode is a masterclass in mindful parenting, giving you insights and practical tools to help you respond better to your child's behavior.

We tackle the all-important subject of parental triggers, exploring how understanding our vulnerabilities and personal history can help us better interpret our child's behavior. Learn to recognize your feelings and urges in the moment and practice the skills to manage them effectively. We assure you, this isn't about achieving parental perfection but gaining understanding and awareness that leads to a more effective response.

By the end, you'll understand why following the 'rules' of parenting isn't enough. It's about understanding yourself to become a more mindful and effective parent. Join us and Dr. Sarah Bren on this insightful journey into the heart of parenting.

Join Dr. Bren's FREE masterclass here:
https://drsarahbren.com/powerstruggles_CH

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Speaker 1:

Trying to just turn off the behavior, despite the flood of feeling pushing on that urge to do that behavior. It's like that might be the wrong spot to be intervening.

Speaker 2:

Hello, dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the Curious Neuron podcast. Hello, dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the Curious Neuron Podcast. Today is another replay episode of our top three episodes. Last week I republished the episode with Dr Bruce Perry If you missed it, you want to go back and listen to that one and today we're publishing the third top episode in our entire 200 episode series so far, and this is with Dr Sarah Bren.

Speaker 2:

Clearly, this topic was very relevant to all of you. We spoke about managing our triggers and I think that, as parents, you know, we learn a lot about how to support our child with their tantrums and their emotions and their behaviors, but we just don't talk enough about how we have to manage our own. And once we start doing that, we see a really big difference in how our kids are starting to manage their emotions. And I know that it's hard to think about it that way and it feels like extra work and more of that self growth and all of that stuff, but it makes a difference. Not only is the science clear that we need to start with us and the more regulated we are which, by the way, not always calm regulated is just the idea of reminding our child that they're in a safe space. So we can still be angry and create a safe space for them, knowing that they're not going to be shamed or disrespected and that they can express their emotions. That is a safe space, and so when we learn how to do that and many of us didn't learn how to do this when we were growing up because we weren't given that environment by doing that for our kids, we are creating that safe space for them, and so it's just important for us to learn how to do that. I also know how important this is because that is why I started or launched the Reflective Parent Club this year.

Speaker 2:

I felt that with these 200 episodes of the podcast with social media that has been up for years now, with some of the courses and PDFs that I had up on CuriousNeuroncom, I had been giving all of you this education for many years. You can keep learning. Remember, this summer, I spoke to 100 parents. The most important thing to many parents, especially new parents, was to learn, and so they were picking up books and reading and following all these people on social media like Curious Neuron and myself, because they wanted to learn, and I think that's a great first step, but it's the first step. The next part is executing and knowing and learning how to do that and getting support to do that, which is why I launched the Reflective Parent Club. Inside the club, there's 20% learning, because you've already learned it all with Curious Neuron.

Speaker 2:

I have a private podcast for everybody where I publish a weekly episode, just like I'm doing here, but it's within the membership, so it's called the Reflective Parent Podcast. Then there are PDFs and tools, but, most importantly, we meet every single week because I want to hold you accountable. I want you to share what's improving and where your challenges are, because it's only through this practice that we'll actually see a difference in how we are aware of our triggers and emotions and how we regulate them in front of our child. And the more we can do that, the more we can model healthy coping skills for our child. And that's why I built the club. Meltdown Mountain is back on our website, kirstenroncom, if you click on shop. So this PDF is a visual that you can use to support your child.

Speaker 2:

And guess what we did in December? Our weekly call inside the club. Instead of it being for adults, I made it a family call and so children came in, I had them draw reflective sorry, the Meltdown Mountain and we spoke about emotions and we spoke about what it felt like to be to feel connected and loved by our parents. We had such an amazing time that we are going to redo this next month, in January. It's going to become a monthly thing to bring our kids inside the weekly reflection call only once a month.

Speaker 2:

If there are any challenges that you are having or struggles that you're having regarding emotional awareness or regulating your emotions or situations you have in your life or even with your child, you can send me an email at info at curiousmrowncom. I really do truly mean it. Send me an email and I do my best to respond to the emails and I want to cover topics that matter to you and that are relevant to you. So I can only do that if I know what's happening, and that's what's so hard when you're recording a podcast. I don't get that communication and connection with you. So send me an email. Info at CuriousNeuroncom. If you are not following us on Instagram, you can follow us at Curious underscore Neuron, and now I've redone the entire website, curiousneuroncom, where you can create your own account and start saving articles. So, if you do love learning, these articles are written by PhD students and graduates with a PhD in neuroscience and researchers. We reach out and we ask these researchers questions, so we have a Q&A within some of these articles, and now we've started including small audios so that you can get a taste of what it feels like to be inside the Reflective Parent Club and get these reflection prompts that help you gain more awareness, and so you can do that by visiting CuriousNeuroncom.

Speaker 2:

As always, I want to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute as well as the McConnell Foundation for supporting the Curious Neuron podcast. Without these two organizations that truly believe in the importance of sharing science, I would not be here and this podcast would not exist. So thank you, and obviously thank you to you, the listener. Make sure that you have pushed the subscribe button for the Curious Drone podcast, because then you get the episodes every single Monday morning, and if you haven't done so yet, take a moment, click out now. It's fine, I'll wait for you.

Speaker 2:

I'll be here to leave a rating and a review. These ratings and reviews matter because they allow our sponsors to see that it's important to you and it matters to people, and that they should continue this podcast, and so I would be grateful if you took a moment to do that and if you do, send me an email info at kirstenoncom. I'll send you Meltdown Mountain for free as a thank you for taking a couple minutes of your time and leaving that rating review. And if you want to try out the membership, the link is always in the show notes and I am leaving the discount from Cyber Friday, cyber Monday. It's $50 for three months. In total, it ends up being $6 and something, a couple, a couple of cents every single week for a one-hour session with me, and so really, it helps you reflect and think through situations that you are having. So take the advantage of the discount that's there and I will see you inside. You also get two weeks for free, by the way, and you can test it out to see if it's for you. All right, I don't want to keep you waiting anymore.

Speaker 2:

Here's my conversation with Dr Sarah Bren. Hi everyone, welcome back to the Cure's Drown podcast. My name is Cindy and today I'm here with Dr Sarah Bren and, as I was just telling her, it's Saturday morning. Here we're recording and I just get this sense of peace that I'm meeting with her again and chatting with. I think it's like a friend that I haven't seen in so long. So welcome back, sarah.

Speaker 1:

Oh, thank you for having me. I feel the exact same way I was saying to you. I was like I don't usually work on Saturdays, but I was like really looking forward to spending my morning, my weekend morning, with you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. You know it's going to be an interesting conversation because this is something that I have been talking about without really realizing how much research was kind of behind it. This was just through experience and I've always talked about the importance of a pause between your child's action and your reaction. But now I've been reading the book Emotional Agility by Dr Susan David and I thought it was really interesting that she spoke about the space, so that pause that I was talking about. But now we're talking about that space between some sort of stimulus and your response, the stimulus being your child's behavior.

Speaker 2:

And when I shared this with you, you mentioned the. You know the how we interpret our child's reaction or response or behavior and how that makes a difference in how we respond. So that's what I wanted to chat with you about today, because even in myself I noticed it, that you know those moments when I'm feeling a certain way or have certain thoughts that are in my mind, I struggle or I don't respond to my kids the same way that I would if I didn't have those. So where do we begin with this conversation? I guess the importance of that space and that how we interpret that, that behavior One.

Speaker 1:

We have to understand that, like our thoughts and our feelings and our behaviors are interconnected, they're not like separate things.

Speaker 1:

I think a lot of times when we talk about wanting to change a response which would be the behavior, we're like I should just change the behavior or my kids should just change the behavior. But if we look only at the behavior, we're missing all the. It's like you have to go reverse engineer that behavior a little bit because it's behavior isn't just coming out of nowhere so and it's pretty hard to just like. If I'm feeling mad and I want to yell, it's hard to just like, not yell and still feel just that mad, right, like. As adults perhaps we may be able to inhibit that impulse with some practice and awareness, because it's not always. But a kid is not going to be able to inhibit that impulse. So trying to just turn off the behavior, despite the flood of feeling pushing on that urge to do that behavior, it's like that might be the wrong spot to be intervening Like I think. I sort of think of it as a chain link and that's not a link on the chain that I would recommend starting with intervention Like I don't think it would be successful. However, if you kind of follow those chain links backwards, you'll find that something happened right, some prompting event occurred.

Speaker 1:

I had an interpretation about that thing, some sort of thought. I made some sort of meaning out of that event and then, because of that thought, I had a feeling, and that feeling leads to an urge and a behavior. That's five links right there, and so trying to just go to link number five, the behavior is not really going to be that helpful. It's hard to inhibit an urge. That's probably not the place I'd start either. It's hard to make a feeling go away.

Speaker 1:

If I have the thought my kid is doing this on purpose, just to piss me off, it's hard to say like, well, don't feel mad about that, I will feel mad about that. But so then where do we go? We can't change the thing that happened. So we're left with the thought, and this is where I think people can have the most impact, right, like if you, if something occurs, the stimulus, the prompting event, whatever kind of language you want to use to describe it and I could notice in the moment ooh, I had a thought, and usually the first thoughts we have are automatic thoughts. We don't actually pick them, they're not really conscious thoughts, they're just like they happen immediately. God, why is he doing that on purpose?

Speaker 1:

Like why is he doing that? He knows better, right. And then I notice, because I'm practicing some awareness ooh, I had that thought that I'm sort of personalizing this. Is there an alternative way to interpret this, this behavior or this event? Um, so like if my kid, just you know, dumped out my entire purse, which has definitely happened Um, I might be like what the hell is wrong with you, like that's mine and why did you do that, and like that's so disrespectful.

Speaker 1:

Those are all automatic thoughts. Those are going to lead to anger, frustration, you know, and probably a lot of urges and behaviors related to that anger and frustration. But if, in the moment, I could say and again I say this, like it's easy to do, this is not easy to do in the moment when your kid dumps out your whole purse and you have to go to not have the thought, those angry thoughts, but if you could say, oh, I wonder if he's feeling a little curious, I wonder if he's just playing and doesn't realize Depends obviously on the age of the kid Like this example in my head is at the time my kid did this when he was, like you know, one and a half to. Yeah, they're curious. Yeah, if my, if he did it now and he's six I would have a different interpretation.

Speaker 1:

But so, like it's not about getting it right either, it's like can we shift our interpretation to give a little more grace, to be a little bit more curious, to be a little bit more open to alternative possibilities, to recognize that maybe a part of them did it on purpose to piss me off, but maybe a part of them also did it because they didn't want to leave and they were feeling my urgency to get out the door and they were getting a little dysregulated and they just kind of like, just impulsively, did this thing and didn't really think it through, didn't think I'm going to do this to piss off mom, but oh, this is that, this is how I'm feeling and I just, you know, like, but when we change our interpretation, does it change the feeling or the intensity of the feeling, which could then change the urge or the behavior?

Speaker 2:

That intensity that you just spoke about. First of all, you said so many things that I've heard parents literally tell me, you know, like the awareness of it. They struggle with the awareness of recognizing, like some you said some can be unconscious, right, and some are conscious, but just recognizing that like moment of, or that thought or that feeling that you might have, that's one thing. Parents have often told me that they go from zero to a hundred, like their child says something or does something, and when I surveyed parents they were like that was the phrase that came out as most common is I go from zero to a hundred and I don't see it coming and then I lose it on my child. That was the first one.

Speaker 2:

The second phrase that was very common was I'm often triggered and I don't know what the trigger is Like. My child says something or does something and I just feel triggered and I lose it, which goes back to that zero to 100. So I there's so many ways that we can continue on this. I, I, I want to take, I just want to touch on that zero to 100, right, and that awareness how does a parent start that process if they are noticing already that they often lose it very quickly and they don't see.

Speaker 2:

I tell parents, if you're going from zero to a hundred, you just haven't recognized or you're not aware of that. One to 99, like it's there, it's happening and I've called them micro emotional moments that's not really a scientific term but I use that to just try to bring awareness to the parents saying maybe somebody said something to you that morning or you had a thought in your mind of, like I'm going to have, I have a deadline at work and I can't miss it. And then you, like the example you gave, your child flips your purse and you're on your way out and then you lose it on them and it's not because of that action, it's because of whatever's been on your mind. So how do we start that awareness aspect?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, oh my God, so many things are coming to my head. But there's sort of two things that I think would be the most helpful. One is I'm left out some of the chain links before you have. So in this model they call it the model of emotions and it's basically it's seven chain links. So the first one, the four prompting event is there are three types of vulnerabilities. There's current state vulnerabilities, like am I hungry? Am I you know? Did I get not a?

Speaker 1:

lot of sleep last night, like did I forget to you know, eat any breakfast? And then there's also our temperament, so like how sensitive are we at baseline to getting dysregulated and how long does it take us to kind of come back down once we do? And then our personal histories, so like these are learned experiences that can be as early as early life, right, or all through our life, like if I have a really critical parent, you know, growing up, and they would have really strong reactions to our negative emotions or to us messing up, then anything that has to do with us perceiving someone criticizing us might be, like you said, a trigger. And I don't know why, right, I don't know why this, my kid, does this. It triggers me. Chances are there's a personal history, vulnerability there that's worth exploring, right? So that's the first link of the chain and I actually think, like I said, that thoughts are a really good place to intervene on that chain link. Vulnerabilities are actually the first place I usually intervene. So that's one piece is like how do you take a look at what's vulnerable to you and we bring our vulnerabilities to every situation, what you know, and when there is a prompting event, which is the second link on that chain like. Then those things come forward. So knowing our vulnerabilities, understanding them, reducing some of them the current state ones are the easiest, most low-hanging fruit to address but like even doing some work around your personal history vulnerabilities that, I think, is where a lot of change, really valuable change, can happen.

Speaker 1:

The other thing I wanted to say is less about before things happen, but in the moment when they're happening, and gaining that awareness of that zero to 100 or zero to 10. So, like a lot of parents that I work with go to a hundred, you know and don't necessarily realize that it's happening until after it's happened. And the nice thing about understanding this chain link thing is you don't always catch the thoughts as they're happening. Usually you have to have a feeling or behavior, maybe an urge, and then you work backwards, you know and like you say, oh um, I really want to scream right now. Okay, let me just pause and work backwards and figure out if I want to scream right now, what feeling is attached to that urge and then what thought maybe led to that feeling and again, like it.

Speaker 1:

It's hard to do this in the moment, but the the more you practice it. A lot of times I'll have families or parents write this out after the fact and then look at it and kind of figure out, because sometimes it's just easier to kind of look back afterwards and say, all right, that didn't go well. Let me map out how that kind of fit the chain link right and then, if you are, then after you've gotten good practice at being able to like really accurately put things in the right order and identify them, then you're more likely to be able to do it in the moment. But I don't expect parents to be able to do this in the moment just like that. It's not, it's a learned process, it's a practice. But when you notice so a lot of parents that I work with don't notice they're climbing it's usually after the fact that they're like oh, that didn't go well and I wish that I had done it differently, and that's so normal.

Speaker 1:

But I think one of the another exercise that I do with with parents is and this, a lot of these things work for parents and they also work with our kids but I have parents kind of think about on a scale of one to 10, where are your tells? Like what does it look like for you to be? And like one is like I'm sleeping, like I'm so regulated, I'm like so calm, I'm basically asleep. Three, in my opinion, is like I'm alert, I'm awake, I'm regulated. That's like the sweet spot. And then 10 is like I am absolutely lost, my mind completely dysregulated. And so if you can kind of think about, not in the moment but like outside of the moment, like what are the different levels for me? Because most of the time and you know who would be really good at helping you fill this out is your partner, because they probably know your tells better than you do. If you are low awareness, that's fine. You guys could do it together. Yeah, give each other some feedback Lovingly getting.

Speaker 2:

But I was just going to say, then get in an argument, because you're like I'm not a seven.

Speaker 1:

But? But I think it's like we, we, we, we talk about building awareness, but we don't really tell people how to do it. It's not easy. It is a practice. There are ways that you can do this. It is not always intuitive. It is not always something you're going to have access to in the moment. That's totally okay.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah you know just we you and I talk all the time about helping parents give their kids emotion regulation skills, and we say it's not going to happen all overnight and they aren't going to just innately know how to do this. And you might have to repeat these instructions and support them in the learning and scaffold them a hundred, five hundred, a thousand times perhaps before you see them do it on their own. And that's normal. So why would it be any different for us?

Speaker 2:

Right, especially if we have so much unlearning to do, I think, and that kind of background and childhood comes into play, then there's a lot to work on and I don't want parents to feel discouraged because I've even this. We did this one week challenge through Wonder Grade, my app, and we had parents just journal, like you said, I didn't want them to be able to identify triggers, I just wanted them to be able to think back at a situation that they yelled and think, like what happened before? What were my thoughts before? Like what happened right before that and what did my child do? That led to me exploding.

Speaker 2:

And parents still after a week, obviously didn't I know how to identify triggers. However, they had become more aware of those moments. So when they were in a similar moment, they were able to just say like, oh, I recognize this moment that I usually yell at. So they hadn't done all the work and they still had a lot of work to do. But just to kind of emphasize that point that you said about writing it down, I think it really does help us to say, oh, now I've noticed a pattern, like when this happens or when that happened in the morning I had an argument with my partner or I'm thinking about something or a certain family member called. I've noticed that I lose it a lot more easily with my kids. Like it's that awareness, that's just like the seed of it, you know, like it's not. They haven't gone through all the links you mentioned, but it's just that tiny little bit of awareness.

Speaker 1:

Right and it builds because the more aware you become, the more aware you become, and it does have a really positive snowball effect. I teach a lot of these strategies in the workshop that I have called Be the Calm in your Child's Storm, and it's funny because I literally created this whole other course on tantrums called the Science of Tantrums. It was about helping parents with their kids' tantrums and I other course on like tantrums called the science of tantrums. It was like about helping parents with their kids tantrums and I was like it's in, it's like in six steps and one of the steps was parental regulation and I was like this needs to be like its own thing Right, yeah, like cause you know, yes, it's, it's good to know what's going on in your child's brain and body to help them regulate.

Speaker 1:

But you can't do that if you're dysregulated, like by definition. Like co-regulation requires a calm nervous system to you know, share with your dysregulated child. So that's why I did the Be the Calm in your Child Storm workshop because I was like I just need to do a real deep dive in like parental regulation. Like it's so hard and no one's teaching parents these strategies. They're just saying be aware, be calm, it's important that you're able to be regulated and it's like sure, great, how do tell me how, though, because?

Speaker 1:

it's really hard in the moment when my kid is doing something that is triggering me and it's normal to be triggered.

Speaker 2:

And thank you. That's exactly what I wanted to say, because I think that parents, when they hear the sort of thing that we're saying about like trying to be calm or be aware, even if they get the advice, I think some parents feel like, oh yeah, but I lost it yesterday. I'm a bad parent. You know like I've had this discussion with parents too, where they feel like I'm trying so hard but I still lost it. Last month I lost it like twice and I tell them that's actually really good, you're better than I am, because that's not easy. And I think there's this sort of pressure where, because of everything that's out there and all the information, I think parents feel this pressure to be better and perfect, and we don't want that. It's not about being perfect, but that awareness will naturally change how you respond to your child. That that sort of you know and and it's not an a hundred percent kind of thing, it's like just gonna, you're going to see it happening more often. But even as people who understand this, I lose it and I still have triggers that I don't understand or I haven't worked on.

Speaker 2:

And you know I was talking to a friend who came up to me and said you know, when my child whines, doesn't matter what it's about, I lose it right away. I have zero patience for the whining. And it led to a conversation about like how did it start? You know what age, when? And it started when he was three years old and it was during the pandemic and right when the pandemic hit and it must've been some sort of behavior that was learned. I don't know how, that's not my background, but it happened during the pandemic. And whenever he whines now she's brought back to a very difficult moment in her life when there was no job, same thing for her husband.

Speaker 2:

They were both really struggling and the child started whining and it just brought it brings her back to a really difficult place, are? Those some triggers that are common in parents because, yes, that trigger.

Speaker 1:

I think parents know there's a trigger, but it's hard to kind of go backwards yes, it's totally, and that's why I said, like the, you know the secret link that I didn't mention originally, which is the prompt. Uh, the vulnerabilities thing is, and that's why I said, like the, you know the secret link that I didn't mention originally, which is the prompt. The vulnerabilities thing is like that's the place that, as a therapist, that's the place I go to first, right, that is like evolutionarily designed to activate a parent's nervous system, like that is why children do it.

Speaker 2:

It is and not volitionally right, it's a very instinctive thing.

Speaker 1:

It works right. Our brains are wired to find that very agitating and uncomfortable and move us into action. But I think so one I just want to like really validate that the sound of a child's whines and even the sounds of a child's cry for different reasons, are activating to our nervous system, especially if you're in the postpartum period. Like your child's cries will put you right into fight or flight, importantly right, like it sucks us because we're always in like this low level state of fight or flight because our, you know, zero to one year olds cry a lot. But this is kind of how our species is designed. So that's just one piece. But the other piece that, as a therapist like I'm very interested is is these vulnerabilities is when you have a personal history, vulnerability A lot of times those are things that are encoded in us and we're not fully aware of them. Right, and there is you know it's funny internal family systems is a type of therapy that we should do a whole other podcast on. It's so interesting. I think it really gets it like it being like the human condition it is. It really gets it like it being like the human condition, but it talks about this idea that we have all these different parts, and different parts come forward to protect us, like our sense of self. And so if there's a part of you that's being triggered by your child's whining, there's a good chance that there's like a part of you that's coming forward and saying like you can't handle that, like that's attached in our mind to something old, that's scary or makes you very unsafe or uncomfortable, and I know you, the self you know, can't handle that. So I'm going to come in and I'm going to protect you, but I'm going to protect you in a way that might not be the most effective today. Like in this world, like you know that, might you know if you had, if perhaps it would like in this world. Like you know that, might you know if you had, if perhaps it would like. In this example, that part might just be, you know, a few years old, remembering something from the pandemic, but it's not the pandemic anymore and so that danger that that part is reacting to isn't actually dangerous anymore. Yeah, but a lot of times these parts are even younger, like I've had I. I've always surprised when I ask a patient I'm working with, like, and I'll never really explained IFS or anything to them and I'll just they'll be talking about something that they do and I'll say something like how old do you think that part of yourself is? And almost always they give me an age. They just know what I'm talking about. And a lot of times it's like I don't allow someone to trigger this reaction inside of you. But if you have a seven-year-old part of you stepping forward to keep you safe, they're going to do it like a seven-year-old does by screaming and getting really dysregulated, and so you, as your adult self, might need to say like, hey, you don't need to protect me anymore like this, I got this, I got you, we're good, I can handle this. Actually.

Speaker 1:

And there's a lot of work that I do in therapy with parents around understanding these personal histories and these vulnerabilities and these triggers. And why is this thing that your child does so profoundly upsetting to you? That's distorted or like out of proportion to what's happening in the moment. And I've seen incredible shifts in parents' ability to like, do behave different and show up different but also just enjoy parenting more. Because all of a sudden, isn't this like kind of constant re-traumatization or like constant, you know, reliving of, unconsciously or consciously, like why people say like why is this so hard? Why does this feel so terrible? Usually there's some old stuff there that has to get kind of like under, like reprocessed and like separated.

Speaker 2:

What would you say to somebody who's listening and I'm bringing this up because I've had this conversation so if somebody is listening and their partner in particular perhaps have these like unconscious, you know, underlying issues that they haven't addressed yet and the insight isn't there yet, right, like, perhaps they're still seeing it as my child's behavior needs to be changed, I'm doing nothing wrong. I'm responding and disciplining according to how my child is behaving and there's no need to go back into my past or childhood. I've had this discussion with a male friend who thought it was like a lot of like. I don't remember the word he used. Like this magic, whatever it is, you know, like it's not real Like, why, yeah, he was.

Speaker 2:

He was arguing with me in the sense of like. Why do I need to think about my childhood? I had nothing traumatic, nothing bad happened. My parents did their best. They were immigrants from a different country but came here, worked hard, we went to school. I have a good life, but, yes, I'm struggling with my child, but my child is the one who has a lot of behavioral issues the one who has a lot of behavioral issues.

Speaker 2:

How do you break through to that person who just doesn't see it yet? How do you make them understand, or help them understand, that they do need to do some work and go back?

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, as a therapist, usually I meet them where they're at and I'm like okay, that's not where you want to go right now, let's figure out a way to work with what's happening now. Then, and usually with some time and some trust building and some recognition that the things that we're trying are working, their willingness to kind of continue to reflect, and, frankly, the more you can build someone's reflective functioning by helping them work with their kid in the moment today and not do the go back work, the more I think they can eventually learn to tolerate reflecting on their own inner mind. Because when you teach a parent to reflect on the inner mind of their child and build that reflective functioning skill, then they're better. Oftentimes they're more taller, they're able to tolerate better the you know the pain. Because that reflecting on your own inner world if you have a parent that's highly defended against that you know, just genuinely does not see the value in it Chances are there's again something's protecting them from feeling something that doesn't feel good. So like and again I say this like you do not have to have a traumatic childhood to have triggers. And again I say this like you do not have to have a traumatic childhood to have triggers. You can, if you are a parent of immigrants who, like was doing the absolute best they could and like life was not easy for them, to seem as though you want to like blame them and I'm using quotes like for why you're having a hard time with your kid right now. That could be really challenging to to your like worldview and your sense of self, your relationship with them.

Speaker 1:

So I think it's really important this isn't about blaming parents at all not blaming current parents and not blaming previous generations of parents. It's about understanding how we encode things. We make meaning of things, and you may have made meaning of things not because there was trauma or bad parenting in your family history, but because that is how your five, six, seven-year-old brain encoded something. Oh, you know what? My parents work so hard, me being emotionally dysregulated, me needing a lot from them emotionally. It's too much for them. They shouldn't have to hold that for me.

Speaker 1:

So I'm going to hold it in. That is not a trauma response, but it's still encoding something that's sort of going to inhibit your ability to have a free and kind of fluid connection with all of your emotions as an adult, which is going to make you having an ability to tolerate a free and flowing relationship with all your child's emotions. You know, as a parent, hard triggering. Even so, not everything's trauma right, and I think that's really important, because I think some people think, oh, if we're looking back at our early history, it's only relevant if there was trauma there. And I don't think that's true.

Speaker 2:

No, I'm glad that you mentioned that, like that trauma part. We hear so much about it now I find Like it's everywhere, I think, like in my reels as well, like they're talking about trauma. I think many have experienced trauma, but I think we have to also think of those who haven't but still need to do some work to try to understand. You know, what did my parents do? Like, how did they respond to my emotions? And, like you said, like what was encoded for me in terms of? I mean, I focus a lot on emotions.

Speaker 2:

So I think about like how parents helped you cope with emotions or did they teach you to kind of push them on the side to the side right? Are you kind of internalizing them, trying to be strong and not? You know, maybe you don't have the skills to talk and discuss and communicate those, those feelings that you're experiencing. So there's still a lot that we could have to work through even if we didn't experience trauma. So it's important that we say that you you mentioned so we spoke about like, the feelings and the thoughts and the behavior part of the beginning. We've been talking a lot about those sort of like the our past and those vulnerabilities. What happens when somebody automatically, I guess, goes towards the putting yourself down when your child is going through something you know like. Those are the thoughts that I think we can work on. If we kind of make a little bit of a mind shift or a shift to that compassion part, that self-compassion, how do we start that work if we know that that's something we struggle with?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, oh gosh, it's interesting because it's the same as the anger thing, in my opinion. Right, it's the same practice, same strategy, right, noticing the thoughts and identifying them with some compassion, right. So even if, in the angry example, if I'm saying to myself, god, why are they doing this? Just to push my buttons when I'm trying to get out of the house, I'm going to feel angry If I notice that thought and I have some curiosity and openness and compassion towards okay, I had the thought they did this on purpose. Towards okay, I had the thought they did this on purpose, all right, what else could it possibly be? The same strategy is kind of works for the shaming, kind of response the parents have, right. So if I have the thought, like if, for example, I yell at my kid, and now that could be a prompting event, that then creates an interpretation that so everything is linked, right. But let's say I yell at my kid and I have the thought, oh my God, I'm the worst parent, I always do this and I just this is too hard for me to do this. That is an automatic thought that is going to lead to an emotion sadness, shame, embarrassment, hopelessness, lots of, lots of feelings. Those feelings are going to lead to urges and behaviors too. Right. Maybe I have the urge to shut down. Maybe I have the urge to pick a fight and deflect. Maybe I have the urge to repair. Our urges aren't all bad, but to increase the likelihood of having an urge to repair requires some sense of okay, I got mad. I had the thought I'm a terrible parent. I had the thought this is too hard, I can't do this. What other thoughts could also be true? This has been a long day. I'm trying I don't need to get it right all the time to be a good parent. I can repair with my kid and make this better. I remember a podcast I listened to where two ladies were saying that if you repair, it's fine. Hold on your other conscious thoughts to challenge that thought a little bit and see if that shifts you out of those feelings of shame, hopelessness, frustration, anger at yourself, whatever you might be feeling. Maybe you feel those feelings but they're less intense. Or maybe you also feel other feelings like okay, I feel a little confident, I feel a little hopeful, I feel like I have some direction. I know what I can do here. I just think that we have permission to like, have a thought, have it, give us a feeling, and to go back and have another set of thoughts and a different feeling and see if it changes. Like just because you had the feeling and even perhaps behaved, you know, had a behavior that kind of followed that you didn't like, you get to redo it. Yes, like you get to do over.

Speaker 1:

I do all the time. I do this with my kids a lot, because I actually yell at my kids a decent amount, like I'm not. I really want to be very clear I yell at my kids. I don't like that. I yell at my kids. I don't try to yell at my kids. I don't like that. I yell at my kids. I don't try to yell at my kids.

Speaker 1:

I have a value as a parent to try to not yell at my kids. I do sometimes feel bad about my parenting when I yell at my kids because it's not aligned with my values. But I still yell because I'm a human who loses it. I get to the end of my rope and when I do, oftentimes my go-to with my kids is, if I can catch it in the moment is to say, whoa, I totally just lost it. Okay, I'm sorry, can we do a redo.

Speaker 1:

And sometimes my kids will not accept my redo because they're totally dysregulated because I yelled at them Right, and they were already getting dysregulated, which is probably why I started yelling in the first place, right, it was all. We were just in a mess at that point. But a lot of times when I say, hey guys, whoa, I did it again, I heard it, I heard that. Yep, I'm sorry, I can, we, can, I try that again.

Speaker 1:

A lot of times that softens them and they kind of like perk up and say like, yeah, what else you got? Yeah, and then I try again and I say I have asked you so many times to go upstairs and get your clothes on for you know, to get ready. I need you to listen, because when you ignore me I get so frustrated. What can we do to all go upstairs and get clothes on Because it's time, and then usually they're like come with us and I'll be like fine, like let's make it a game, whatever, but like it's a redo. And you know what that comes after me totally yelling at my kids and it being like, okay, this could have gone completely south, but we, we regrouped. You're allowed to get messy and regroup. Yes exactly.

Speaker 2:

That is such a good example. And I've had the same thing where I've kind of been like whoa, that response was not what it should have been. I'm sorry, let's try this again. And I've even done with my kids where that that like get upstairs kind of thing where you have to repeat yourself and repeat yourself or the toys. I have three kids so like I guess it becomes a mess in the home by the end of the day because who brought out the legos? Who has the barbies? Who has this, who has that toy? It's, it's too much.

Speaker 2:

And then for me I know that one of my triggers is that visual stimulation thing where there's too much in my like what I could see, too many items and I become overwhelmed because I know that I need to pick it up if they don't and I don't have time for this. So all those thoughts go in my head. So if I'm preparing dinner and I see that it's a disaster and it's already, I could feel my heart like race. I let them guys, there's just too much around right now and I'm feeling my heart starting to race. I don't know if this is the right way to do it with them, but I let them know that I'm sort of like getting dysregulated and like I don't want to get to that point and they know.

Speaker 2:

if mommy yells, if, like, she becomes like a certain way, you know things are around, if we're ignoring, so I, or even if they're ignoring, I'll tell them. Guys, I've, I've told you three times and now I can feel myself getting frustrated. So please, let's go together upstairs. What? How do we solve this problem right now? Because you've been ignoring me, you know, for X amount of time. So I think there's that beauty of what you're doing and like that, just that expressing to our child, like I feel emotions. Right now, in this situation, I'm feeling frustrated because, like that whole sentence that I've told parents, like, say the emotion and then say, because, link it to something that's happening in your environment so that it's more you're aware of what's going on. It's not just I'm feeling frustrated.

Speaker 2:

Why? Because you haven't cleaned up and I asked you three times. So just letting them know that I find like makes a really big difference in how they respond to me. And you know it's, and I think it's an important one.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, you're doing so many things there. One, the first thing I thought of is like okay, you're talking about temperament vulnerabilities. Right, I know, temperamentally I'm sensitive to visual stimulation. Knowing your sensitivities allows you to reduce the vulnerability in the moment, because sometimes that means you are going to like work hard outside of the heat of the moment to kind of have an environment that has low visual stimulation at times or give yourself a sensory break or whatever. That's like a regulation before the prompting event, kind of thing. Right. Also, just understanding your tells Right, we were talking about that.

Speaker 1:

Like, when you're in it and you're climbing, you know that when my heart starts racing, you know when I start to feel that feeling in my body, I know, okay, that's actually like a five out of 10 or maybe a seven out of 10. I want to know what my I always say. So if I say like three is our sweet spot, we want to be like three is kind of like the goal, we're never always at a three by the way, move up and down this all the time, that's appropriate.

Speaker 1:

But if we recognize, okay, if my five or my seven, for example, is is a, is my heart racing. I know that. You know nine, 10 is no, the point of no return, right? So if I can catch that heart racing at a seven, I've got a little bit of room to sort of take a break, bring it down, try to regulate myself, get down. You're not going to get down to a three from a seven, but you might be able to get down to a five and five. We have so much more access to our parenting toolbox at nine 10. It's gone. Our toolbox is shut, right, it's there, but it's gone. Our toolbox is shut right, it's there, but it's shut. Yeah, we're just gonna have to ride the wave, same with our kids, right, when they're at an eight, nine, like nine, ten, they. We are not going to be able to co-regulate that. That box is shut in that moment and we just have to ride the wave and that's okay, that's not a failure for our kid.

Speaker 1:

That's a huge misunderstanding about like oh, if I don't, you know, support them earlier and they have the meltdown. I've failed at supporting them and co-regulating them. You can co-regulate it at 9, 10. It just looks like being present and keeping them safe and riding the wave. That's the co-regulation at that level. But I mean, this is why it's so interesting because, like, we all have the same parts. You know equipment, right, our dysregulation and their dysregulation is really the same kind of stuff happening.

Speaker 1:

Cortex means you have more access to your tools to self-regulate and also to modify the environment, right, whether that's getting out of the visual stimulation space or getting your kids to listen. You know those are two environmental stressors coming at you in that moment and you have more tools to try to modify that effectively. Right, we know screaming at our kids to go clean up very rarely works. But if I have an opportunity to say, hey guys, let's problem solve here, what do we need to do to clean this up? This has to happen. So let's think together. I'm not saying that will always work, but you'll have a much better chance at success of the outcome which is getting the area clean or getting your kids to cooperate, so I love everything that you did in that example. Thank you, but yeah it's not.

Speaker 1:

it doesn't need to be perfect, it can be messy.

Speaker 2:

I want to touch on one thing that you said and then we'll kind of like close this up. But you mentioned, like the thoughts that are. I forgot how you mentioned it, but true, right, when we have thoughts, they're often not facts, right, they're often feelings or emotions that we have based on our past, based on what we believe on ourselves, about ourselves. But what I've noticed is it's important to say, like you were saying, like, let's say you're leaving and their child flips your purse or whatever it is, in that moment you can be thinking or you're you know, you yell at your child.

Speaker 2:

I'm a bad parent. Why do I do this? Every time I mess up. But if we start just noticing the fact, like what's reality, what's, what are the facts? Right now, my child is dysregulated or screaming. I'm feeling frustrated. Just saying that as a thought kind of gets you away from the shaming yourself perhaps, or feeling guilty, and just you're keeping your thoughts there, but you're focusing on things that you see, you're around, you hear, that are real right. Is that something that can be helpful for a parent to just?

Speaker 1:

focus on facts. I love that, and that's the difference, I think, between an objective interpretation and a subjective interpretation, cause we taught I use the term interpretation when I'm thinking about thoughts Like how are you interpreting this prompting event, what meaning are you giving this thing that has occurred? And sometimes we will use subjective language for that, which is like you know, I'm guessing. I think sometimes, if we notice we're doing that a lot and it's leading to negative feelings for us or uncomfortable feelings for us, then the alternative would be to try to insert more objective interpretation. Okay, my child dumped out my purse. I don't actually know why he did that. I'm guessing it's because he's trying to piss me off. I may also guess that it could be because he doesn't want me to leave, or because he wants to see what's in there, or he's out of control, like he doesn't. He's not actually choosing, he's just kind of like um, which is a very technical, scientific term.

Speaker 2:

I know exactly what you're talking about.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's in the index, but I don't have to get it right. I can use subjective. Those are all subjective interpretations, by the way, but I always say when I'm talking to parents about coming up with alternative interpretations is like you don't have to actually get the right one, you have to generate possibilities. Generating multiple potential interpretations is regulating and it's not about being like the one that's right. It doesn't really matter why your kid dumped out your purse. What matters is generating alternative hypotheses helps you chill out so that it interrupts the cycle of that chain link. Right, it interrupts you moving immediately to anger, immediately to wanting to yell and immediately to yelling.

Speaker 2:

Because, by the way, this chain link it's like instantaneous, it's like I'm talking about it as though it's all spread out and slow, but we move through it like in a millisecond Right, right yeah, what would be the three baby steps that they can start off with, or two if you want. But how do we start? Obviously, I always say, you know like you need to start with baby steps. Don't give yourself such a big challenge like working through your childhood. It'll come when it's ready, but right now, yeah, that's one of the last steps if you want to see a difference tomorrow, like what can you start working on?

Speaker 1:

I would start first, working on in retrospect, trying to identify these things After something has been a hot mess, taking a minute and trying to write down what happened, because we have a lot more access to our thinking brain, our prefrontal cortex, after something's happened and now we have all the data. We don't have the data before it happens. It's hard to do this before it happens. It's like you either do it in the heat of the moment or you do it after. And I think you need to be able to do it after to be able to eventually do it in the heat of the moment. And that's another thing I think parents mistake right. They think if I can't do in the heat of the moment, I'm never able to do it. Well, you're, you're trying at the wrong time. Bud, you got to do it after. First, we got to go afterwards and reflect on what happened, what, what do we think was the prompting event, what were our vulnerabilities? And you don't have to go in order, but like you go, you know sometimes you only know what I did and you have to work backwards. It doesn't matter what order, just fill in all the different spots on the links and, by the way, I said there were seven, but I didn't mention the seventh, which is after effects, which is like what are the consequences? What happened after I did the behavior? Or, if you're mapping out your child's chain link, what happened after they did the behavior? And help them get, because you can use these. I use these tools with kids all the time to help them gain awareness of their emotional trajectories. But so the seven links are in order vulnerabilities, prompting, event interpretation, emotion, urge, behavior after effect. And so go afterwards and write down what those things were, and you don't have to go in order, just plug in what you can identify and work backwards. That would be step number one, because I think that is going to give parents a little bit of confidence that they actually can identify these things and then you are much more likely to be able to catch them happening in the moment. It's really hard to know this stuff in the moment if you don't practice it outside of the moment. So that's step one.

Speaker 1:

The other thing that I think is actually super underrated and we didn't talk about this at all is current state. Vulnerabilities are some of our lowest hanging fruit and some of our most dysregulating like pressures on us. Are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you getting enough water? Are you getting any sunshine? Are you getting a break? Are you overstimulated? Like these are things that we have to look at as parents because usually we are usually highly, highly vulnerable in our current state. Vulnerabilities as parents that is part of the job, it's just life as a parent. But we have to start taking an inventory and seeing like, okay, well, what's one or two small things I can do to increase my bandwidth in these areas and reduce my vulnerability? Maybe it's that I just get a water bottle and I like have it with me all day so that I'm getting more hydrated. Do not underestimate how much dehydration can make you vulnerable to getting dysregulated, like if anybody has kids at camp this summer, you will know, because they are all dehydrated and they come home hot mess. Yes.

Speaker 2:

Because like they're not drinking anything.

Speaker 1:

Nobody is going to be patient when they're thirsty, and we don't often register thirst, so like that, I think, is something that sounds so minimal and non-relevant to anything we're talking about, but it is like, and just in general, like taking care of ourself. It is like, and just in general, like taking care of ourself. It sounds so cliche, but it makes us better parents because it gives us more bandwidth to stay regulated. Yeah, there's a direct relationship between prefrontal cortex activation and a lot of these like basic needs for caring for ourselves that caring for ourselves part could be a whole other conversation too.

Speaker 2:

Because you know, whenever I talk to parents, even parents who are single parents they say what do you, what do you think I can possibly do when it comes to taking care of myself? And I know I was raised by a single mom and I saw there was never any downtime, you know, and I think that that's a really hard part, that we need to acknowledge that sometimes it is very difficult to do that aspect of it, but that the fact that you can change how you're thinking or feeling in those moments, I see it a little bit as self-care because you're not being as hard on yourself and there are little, little tiny changes that we can do in how we're thinking and how we're behaving and how we're responding to our kids. That will feel good. And, and to me, that was something that I learned after having my third child, because I had them very close in age, so it was like back to back and never having any time to myself, and then everything exploded, everything.

Speaker 2:

Just it was really intense for me because I had two in diapers and the pandemic hit and three kids under four and I just didn't know how to cope with everything because I couldn't breathe. That's what it felt like, you know, and when you have that feeling that you're just like not getting the moment to breathe, you just let go of everything, including yourself, and you just you can't do anything anymore. So that self-care piece is a conversation on its own, but I just want to acknowledge it and say like sometimes we self-care might not be stepping out of the house if we can't, but self-care can be. That, how I feel about myself, and that love for myself is what changes how I respond to my child as well yes, and self-compassion is part of self-care.

Speaker 2:

It's huge, yeah yeah, it is yeah and it's available.

Speaker 1:

like even if you are, you know, have very low resources for support, self-compassion is there and it's not easy to make accessible. I also, like you know, we talk about resources, right. Sometimes it's like, oh yeah, well, I can't get to get a babysitter, and that we have to acknowledge that that's not always accessible. Self-compassion isn't always easily accessible, but it is present. It's there inside. You can do some work to be able to get access to it, because it does exist inside of you. It's there. You were born with it. We are born with the capacity for self-compassion.

Speaker 2:

And that ability, I think, to recognize that you're feeling dysregulated, even for myself, with three young kids, in those moments when I just couldn't deal with it anymore and I had no idea what to do and going out wasn't an option because I was stuck here and nobody can come and help me. It was a you know what Screw it. Uh, we're going to the bath. Here's a popsicle, have fun. I'm going to sip a coffee, and that's what self-care looks like for me in that moment. It's just. I know that we can't leave and I can't get somebody to come. Forget our routine, forget our schedule. I'm not making dinner, you know what I mean. Like it's those moments where you're like that's it, like this is what I need right now, in the moment. And you know what's funny, it's always been those moments that they remember, those moments where I was like too bad, eff it, I'm not doing anything right now. And they were like remember that day where we had pizza, the park, and we didn't do anything else? That day?

Speaker 1:

You know, like they remember those moments, it's so interesting yeah, Like I've definitely definitely had those like full day pajama days with like a three movie marathon with our kids, and I'm napping on the couch, like I am not ashamed to admit that, like those, I need those days sometimes and that's self-care. It's like was it a spa day? Hell, no. Was it a hot mess? Yeah. Was it relaxing for me? Yeah, it was. Did I dial it in? Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:

I'm okay with that. Yeah, and we need to be okay with saying that out loud, because I think some people feel like that's bad parenting. No, it's not bad parenting when you take care of yourself, so I just wanted to bring that up. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1:

That feels like a really, really important point to highlight.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thank you for everything that we chatted about. I do want to take a moment. I want you to talk about your podcast, because it's doing so well and I want people to hear about it, and I'll put the link in the show notes and the course as well. I'm sure there are parents who want to know, like, how do I access those links and learn more about them? So please share everything that they could access and how to find you Love it Amazing.

Speaker 1:

Thank you I. It's so funny because you've been on the podcast and we're about to do another episode, so I'm super excited. But my podcast is called securely attached and it's it's really about um, rooted in attachment theory. Um, I kind of look at everything through an attachment theory lens but looking at emotion regulation and looking at helping parents kind of understand their children's brains and bodies when they are having hard times, when they're doing challenging stuff and how to navigate that. We also talk a lot about like parental mental health, because I kind of the way I sort of see it is like there's this Venn diagram of like, like raising healthy kids and like parental mental health and like I don't see those things overlapping so much sometimes. You do a very amazing job of that. That's why I love your work. But, like I think you know, sometimes people just focus on one at the expense of the other, and then some or the other at the expense of the other, and then some or the other at the expense of the other, and so I my goal with the podcast was securely attached is to like really give parents information. That's like research backed. I don't like to tell parents what to do so much. I'm more like let me give you the info and help you be an educated consumer of all the parenting content out there. So that's really what securely attached has become and I'm I'm like content out there. So that's really what securely attached has become and I'm I'm like it's been so much fun. I love it. So you can get that. You can find that wherever you're listening to this podcast.

Speaker 1:

And then I have I have a course called the science of tantrums, which I spoke about a little bit earlier in a workshop that kind of is connected to it, called be the calm in your child storm. And then I actually have I didn't tell you this, but I have a new program that I'm launching in September. I don't even have a name for it yet, but I've run it before as a therapy group in my private practice, but it's for parents of two to seven year olds who have kids who are like, have really sort of like big feelings, big behaviors, and they feel like all the things that they're doing to try to support their kids just aren't working, like they're following all the rules but like it doesn't seem to work for their kid. I feel like I get that so much in my practice where they're like I'm doing all the things and it doesn't work for my kid and I'm like, okay, well, let's look at what you're doing, because usually parents are using the right tools but they're using them at the wrong time, and so this course is a lot about helping parents kind of figure out when do I use the tools that I've been taught, how do I do it effectively.

Speaker 1:

So it's an eight-week program where we meet weekly and kind of work on this. So I don't have a name for it yet. If your listeners have any ideas, I would love to like crowdsource some good names for this course. So, yeah, you can go on my instagram at dr sarah brun and dm me some ideas, but it's it's gonna be fun. It's it's like small groups. So it's like me and 10 families and, um, just kind of like really getting into it for eight weeks on how to like understand what's going on for their kids so I can share that information when I have it got it. But it's such important work.

Speaker 2:

I think we need that. We touched on it. But like when that child's kind of at the top and they're completely dysregulated, I hear parents say but I did all of this and said this and tried to tell them, like you know, take deep breaths and nothing worked and it's like because that was the wrong time. It's just too late at that point, but it's okay.

Speaker 1:

But the intention is there right? I feel like parents have so much information these days and sometimes it's like it's very hard to sort through it all, and so they're just kind of like taking what they are, you know, being thrown at constantly and trying to figure out for themselves how to apply it. You know it's so it's like about the application. It's like, yeah, actually these tools really I do think are the most effective, but you also need some help in how you apply it, because I don't think it always is. That part isn't always taught.

Speaker 2:

True. Thank you again for chatting with me. I know we'll chat again sometime soon and until then, you guys can follow Sarah online and I'll put all the links in the show notes, thank you. Thank you, I hope you enjoyed our conversation. Please take a moment to subscribe to the Curious Neuron podcast, to rate it and to leave a review. Follow us on Instagram at curious underscore neuron, and if you're looking for articles that are based on science that will help you with your parenting, please visit curiousneuroncom. I will see you next time. Have a beautiful and wonderful week. Bye.