Curious Neuron Podcast

A mother's healing journey after losing her husband to suicide

• Cindy Hovington, Ph.D. • Season 7 • Episode 16

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Grief is a complex journey, especially when it involves the devastating loss of a loved one by suicide. Join us as we sit down with Reshma, a mother of three, who shares her heartfelt story of healing following her husband's tragic death. Through her lens, we explore how mindfulness has been a beacon of hope for her family, providing essential tools for emotional regulation and coping with stress. Reshma's experience serves as a poignant reminder of the power of community and mindfulness, especially in moments of profound sorrow. By fostering an environment of presence and awareness, families can build emotional well-being and resilience, finding strength in shared experiences and mindful practices.

About Reshma:

Follow her on Instagram: @reshmakearney

Reshma Kearney is a widowed mom of three and a certified mindfulness instructor passionate about helping children and families cultivate emotional resilience and mental wellbeing. After losing her husband to suicide in 2022, she turned to the mindfulness practices she had been sharing with her children even before his passing, using them as a lifeline to navigate grief and support their healing. Her website is currently being created so if you want to reach her, please reach her through Instagram. 

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Speaker 1:

Hello, my dear friend, welcome to the Curious Neuron podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host. I am a mom of three from Montreal, canada, and I have a PhD in neuroscience. My goal, through my work here at Curious Neuron, is to help you learn how to regulate your emotions, and there are lots of things that can impact how we regulate our emotions, whether it's our mental health, whether it's our past or how we haven't learned how to cope with emotions and weren't given those skills. Maybe we're struggling with stress, and maybe there's something bigger in our life that's going on, but the more that we can learn to understand ourselves and what's happening around us, the more we can gain control of our emotions. Every once in a while, I don't invite a clinician or a researcher to the podcast. I invite a person that has experienced something that I think we all need to hear about, because sometimes there are stories that we can hear that allow us to feel seen in our own story, and maybe there's some part of this that we can relate to. And so in today's episode, I'll be speaking with Reshma, who's a mom of three whose husband committed suicide two years ago, and so what I decided to do for this conversation is, of course, I want all of us to hear her story, but I also want us to learn about her healing journey and what she's been doing, because this was the reason why I reached out to her. She's very open and vocal about mindfulness and how this has helped her and her three kids, and I think that we need to place a little bit more focus on that for this conversation. Not saying that the other part isn't important, obviously, but I think, learning from her and her journey, that we could somehow take pieces of this and apply this to our lives, seeing just how important mindfulness and certain practices were within her family in order to help them heal and help them as they mourned the loss of their father and her husband. Before I share that conversation with you, I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute, as well as the McConnell Foundation. If it weren't for these two organizations, this podcast would not be here. I'm just so grateful that open science is really important to them, and so that is why I continue to share the science.

Speaker 1:

I'd also like to take a moment to thank you, the listener, for taking your time to listen to this episode, to download it, and, if you haven't done so yet, please take a moment to click out of this episode. And if you haven't rated or left a review for the podcast, please do this. It means everything, and if you are enjoying the podcast and you've been listening to this for a while and still haven't even reviewed or left a rating rating is the fastest thing you could do. Please do that as a Christmas gift for me. It is that important because the funding that comes for this podcast not money for me, but money for the team that allows me to continue doing this, because if I had to edit all of this, I would not be able to do this, and I'm so grateful that we have Sadie helping out, we have Claudia, we have Rachel, we have a team behind Curious Neuron, and so take a moment to do that so that we can continue putting this podcast out. And as the ratings improve, I also get to ask more or not more important, but some bigger people that you might want to hear from, and so take a moment to rate or review the podcast, and congratulations to Hannah, who shared the podcast inside a Facebook group, rated the podcast and left a review and now has access to the Curious Neuron membership called the Reflective Parent Club for three months, which is a $79 value, and so congratulations to you. I'm so grateful that you did that, and if you want to win three months inside our membership so that you can get a peek into what we are learning as parents, as a community that is growing every single week, we are learning how to regulate our emotions, manage our stress and how to teach our kids to regulate their own emotions, and so if you want to have this for free, make sure that you send me an email with screenshots of proof of everything that you've shared, share it in a Facebook group, share it in a newsletter at work or an email somewhere, and help me grow this podcast, and I will, with absolute pleasure, give you three months for free for a membership, and you can send me an email at info at kirstenoncom. And if you're looking for a little support in terms of your well-being, you could download our free PDF. It is 40 pages that help you look at different aspects of your life and help you reflect on that, and so you can click the link in the download in the show notes to download that.

Speaker 1:

This week, inside the Reflective Parent Club, we are going to be talking about what parenting looks like around extended family, and so on Tuesday, we meet every single Tuesday and we talk about different topics and reflect on it and discuss some challenges that we have around that. And so this Tuesday we're going to talk about what that looks like when your child has a big tantrum or emotions around family and you feel them judging and criticizing you. So we're going to discuss that. And then next week, since it's the holidays on Monday rather than Tuesday, we're moving the reflection call, the weekly call that we have, to Monday and it's called the family reflection call. So my kids, rather than me, are going to be leading the reflection call and it's going to be for children, so parents and their kids could join, and we're going to be talking about emotion Meltdown Mountain, which is back, by the way. I've brought it back up on the website. I've put the link in the show notes.

Speaker 1:

If Meltdown Mountain is something that will help you, come join us. You get two weeks for free when you join the membership, and so you could join during the holidays and see if this is something you need to start the new year on the right foot in terms of yelling less and feeling more in control of your emotions and managing your stress. All right, that is all, my dear friends. I hope you enjoy my conversation and, like I said, this might be a more difficult one at the beginning, and so I'm just warning you that, if you do struggle with hearing about suicide, we will talk about it a little bit at the beginning and then we'll move into the journey that she has experienced in her own life. Welcome back everyone to the podcast. I'm here with Reshma. Welcome to the Curious Neuron podcast.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, cindy, I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much. You and I connected online and you were recently in our newsletter. You shared your story, I introduced you in the bio and now I just think it would be really interesting to hear your story. I have had some conversations with friends in terms of what have parents spoken about, you know? Has this happened to somebody that they know? Is this something that you know they wouldn't know how to approach? I think we're going to look at it from many different ways today so that we can share your story and understand this in terms of how we can support somebody who's going through this. So, if you don't mind sharing a bit of why we're here and what we're talking about, yeah, so I'm a mom of three kids.

Speaker 2:

My son is 12 years old and my daughters are 10 and nine and in 2022, we lost my husband to suicide and at that time, we had just moved to Washington state and that's where Forever was supposed to begin. Sean had gotten out of the army that year and we had dreams of settling down in Washington State. So quickly, all those dreams and excitement just changed in a devastating way. And he was a hardworking, energetic person and our worlds were turned upside down when he passed away. And I remember somebody asking me if I was shocked when he took his own life, and I responded with that I wasn't shocked that he didn't want to be in the world anymore. He had been battling depression and anxiety for years and I knew that his struggle was very deep. But I was shocked that he gave up, in a sense, because giving up just wasn't who he was, and so I imagine he was in a lot of pain and in a really dark place. But even to this day, I'll never really understand. And when he passed away, I immediately went into fight or flight mode. I put all my energy into the kids, making them a priority. Put all my energy into the kids, making them a priority, making sure they were connected with therapists and resources, and we leaned in on mindfulness practices that we were fortunate enough to have had in place before Sean passed away. So things like breath work, nature walks, gratitude journaling were really natural for the kids to do, and they helped us process the emotions of grief and stay present and find peace in that real heaviness of grief.

Speaker 2:

So, fast forward to a year and a half later, the kids and I moved to California to be near my family and I realized that I wanted to share our story. And I didn't just want to share about Sean and his mental health challenges. I wanted to share about how mindfulness and connection helped me and the kids survive and start to heal Right. And so I went back to social media, on Instagram, I started sharing my story and I was surprised by the responses I got. They were encouraging, warm and kind, and it just made me believe that my new purpose is to spread hope to people who might be in a similar situation as we are, or someone who's facing a different type of loss or different types of challenges. So I'm starting to create a business. I'm launching a business in grief, support and mindfulness, and it's just been incredibly meaningful because we've been able to use what we've been through to help others Right.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for sharing that with us and I am so sorry for your loss. Thank you, you mentioned how you're focusing on the journey of mindfulness and I really appreciate that you're doing that, because there's a lot of talk around mental health, which we need, but then what about after everything? You know the grieving part and the healing journey. I don't think we talk enough about what tools are available to us in terms of supporting us and our family and our kids. We don't talk enough about that. So I really appreciate that you're kind of focusing on that. If we can just touch on a little bit of the mental health, because I know that there are dads listening to this. I know that there are mostly moms, but lots of dads that listen to the podcast, and so sometimes you hear that there weren't any signs, but you said that there were definitely not signs, but that there you can see the struggle. So how can a partner try to support their husband through a struggle If they see that they're struggling with mental health? What can they do in those moments?

Speaker 2:

That's something I'm trying to figure out even now. I talk to men now who are struggling and who, for some reason, will confide in me over social media, but they won't talk to their wives.

Speaker 2:

And same with Sean. He was an orthopedic surgeon in the military. So right there you see, these barriers to asking for help right? Men in general in those fields are discouraged from showing vulnerability. They're meant to be strong and resilient and push through.

Speaker 2:

Challenges me about his childhood or his current state of depression. I would encourage him to go get help, but he almost leaned on me as his therapist and it was like every year we went through I called it the downward cycle. This is Sean's downward cycle. Every year there was some moment that really brought him down and I helped him come out of it and then, in a more calm state of mind, I would encourage him to get help. And he just wouldn't. He wouldn't even ask colleagues for coverage to take a break from work. Wow, right. So yeah, I, I wish I could answer that you know what are, what are the challenges and what are we as wives supposed to do or what can we do?

Speaker 2:

I felt like I did everything that I could for him. I, I was there for him, I stayed, change our family's diet. I introduced him to hot yoga. I would try to encourage him to practice certain mindfulness, things that the kids and I were doing. If I read a book about mindfulness or emotions, depression, anxiety, I would highlight things and send it to him. So I feel like I was constantly you were supporting him, yeah, but I guess I wasn't really telling him what he needed to hear or showing him what he needed to see. I don't know.

Speaker 1:

But we don't know right in those moments. Yeah, so mindfulness was present way before you, like at the beginning, with your kids. When did that come into like your family's sort of habits?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, during COVID. So in 2020, the kids were at home, we were homeschooling and quarantining and I needed something to break up our day.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I started.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you know you homeschool. Exactly yeah, you homeschool by choice. So you're a superwoman, you need breaks, yeah. And so I started incorporating some movement. We'd go outside for nature walks, do nature art, we did some meditation and I noticed a huge shift in the energy of our home, in myself, in the kids, and so I actually went on to get certified to teach kids yoga and mindfulness.

Speaker 2:

I love that Then later that year we ended up moving from where we were at the time during the peak of the pandemic to Georgia and then getting out of the army. But so our practices had started way before Sean passed away. And in a way I always say I feel like the universe prepared us for this tragedy, because if we didn't have these tools, if my kids didn't have these tools, I don't know where we would be today, and that bothers me a little bit, because they need the tools.

Speaker 1:

And so what you did is you proactively taught your child the tools for whatever, obviously not thinking of this, but you had them, have the right tools. And I think that, as parents, sometimes we wait for something to happen and then we say like, well, now you need therapy or now you need the tools, but we need to start incorporating these into our daily practices because they are important for our children's wellbeing and their mental health.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I agree, and I have the same feeling about hearing people say kids are resilient. Because kids are not born resilient and we don't want them to learn resilience through tragedy and loss, because it's like teaching a kid how to breathe during a tantrum right, right, wrong time. You can't get through to them. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So, after Sean committed suicide, what was it like in terms of the support or the? Was there a lack of support too? Like? What was that for you? Because I could only imagine you know, as a, as a friend or a family member, not knowing what to say or how to support that person that's going through this. So what was that for you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I I had a lot of support I I'm very fortunate to have huge families on both sides. Being a military family, we've collected friendships throughout all of our moves, so we had love and support pouring in. But when it came to really connecting in a shared way around the loss, I didn't feel that. And it really wasn't until now, having been on social media, having connected with people who've faced similar losses, that I realized I really needed that connection. Back then I really needed to talk to somebody who had been through what I'd been through, who knew what I was about to face moving forward. And I didn't have that.

Speaker 1:

Right, and so that kind of reminds us again in terms of a society, you know, when there are whether it's loss of a partner or a child or somebody significant in your life that we need these support groups, because that's when you're able to hear from somebody or speak with somebody who's experienced the exact same thing as you. Yeah, exactly, I think that we should be more mindful of that, because even when I speak to parents who are struggling with fertility, there aren't enough support groups for them. They don't have the support that they need. They will have family members and friends that will say, like, if you need me, I'm here, but they need a little bit more than that and they need to have a conversation with someone. Um, yeah, and especially now with social media or zoom, I think that we can create more of these to to create those opportunities.

Speaker 2:

Right, I think it's just. It's such a vulnerable place to be in that I think for people vulnerable place to be in that I think for people especially early on in their grief journeys it's difficult to reach out for help. And you know, I see that even now because I created this grief support and mindfulness program for the holidays. I talked to you about it and you know there's interest, but nobody has stepped up and said yes, I want to sign on, and I don't blame them. It's so early, especially for a woman who's lost a husband. It's a really scary time. I was a stay at home mom for all those years and then my husband, the primary breadwinner, passes away unexpectedly. You know you're, you're scared and so it's. It's sometimes seems like too much of an investment, but it's just so important, it's so valuable to connect and get support.

Speaker 1:

You share. You know your journey online, but is it's the people that you meet? Are there some that are resistant to kind of speaking about it? Are there people that have experienced this but don't want to talk about it? I thought I mean I'm alone in this.

Speaker 2:

I'm a South Asian woman who lost her husband to suicide. In this community I felt so alone Once I started sharing my story. People did reach out, but they DM me, so you'll see if I post something. I might not have a lot of engagement, but behind the scenes I have a lot of people reaching out and sharing and I think that's a first great step for them and I always remind them that they should be really proud of themselves for even reaching out and sharing their story. But it does show you that we're still not in a place where people feel comfortable in sharing what they're going through.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and thank goodness for people like you that are now like. These people have a place to. Doesn't have to be in front of everybody in the comments, but they have a space to go into the DMs and share their story with you or their journey. So I'm sure that they are very grateful for what you've created as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I hope so, and I say that, you know, this is one of the benefits of being a small account and not having a lot of followers, because I, you know, I have all the time to engage one on one with people behind the scenes, and I'm happy to do it.

Speaker 1:

And that's what feels good too with the social media aspect of it. You know, like when it grows, then it's harder to keep up and then you're just watching DMs pile up and you're not interacting anymore, you're not engaging in the same way. You get that personal touch, I think, as your account is growing. I think it's really important for that. A parent reached out to me and said that the holidays are always the hardest time for their mental health and that this is why why I kind of you know I'm putting this episode out earlier than I wanted to during the holidays, because I know that this is a hard time for many people. Is this the reason why you started your group now? Like this period is, is it strategic in terms of? Holidays can be really hard on on our mental health, especially if we're grieving.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I, I yeah. It's strategic, strategic, and I think it came down to timing as well. I felt ready now and so it made sense, but I do think the reason why I created an eight-week program specifically for healing through the holidays is because I recently was thinking back to my first holiday season, which was only a couple months after Sean passed away. He passed away September 30th 2022. And I just remember that time.

Speaker 2:

I felt like I was having an outer body experience. I was living outside of myself, watching, but not present and not connecting, and I would have benefited from something like this where, over eight weeks, you're meeting with somebody who knows what you've been through Weekly. You have loose themes related to the holiday and things that come up Because things that come up during the holidays for people who are grieving are, and things that come up because things that come up during the holidays for people who are grieving are. You know what is it going to feel like? How do I manage these emotions? How do I honor my loved one but yet enjoy the holiday with my family who's still here? You know, traditions look different and that's really hard to accept for a lot of people, and so I would have benefited from that kind of support.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm going to put the links to all of that, everything for those who are listening. Everything will be in the show notes, because I do think it's important to share this kind of information and to have more of these, you know, to put it out there, because there's definitely. We know we had an episode on specifically on military families and we talked about mental health and supporting their children as well, and mental health is there's this chimney trail health, I believe they're called and they're growing and they're trying to support, you know, military families in terms of their mental health and so on. So it's definitely something that people need to know exists, which is your program, and to have access to it. So I'll be putting it up on social media again and putting it up with the podcast. I want to make sure everybody gets that.

Speaker 1:

So let's make sure we put enough energy into the journey now that you are going through and we've spoken about mindfulness. You spoke about gratitude and breath work. What does that look like? You know, in terms of not just daily habits that you've instilled in your children, but I've heard that grief is. You know there's ups and downs, and so does that change what you do with your family.

Speaker 2:

When it comes to mindfulness practice, yeah, you know, mindfulness is not a one size fits all. It's not one size fits all. It also doesn't just work overnight. I tell people that our healing is a daily practice. We have to be mindful and intentional every single day, and I see that in just my three kids. I have three kids. They have the same dad, they've been raised the same, but each of them responds to different mindfulness practices differently. So my oldest, my 12-year-old for him it's more about reminding him to breathe and to do breath work. And my middle one she's very quiet and doesn't share a lot, so for her it's been writing and journaling and art. She likes to. We do nature art. We'll go with a bag and pick up things and then make something, and that's been really helpful for her. For her. And then my youngest is very expressive, very vocal and a free spirit, and so for her, if I start noticing that her light is dim, I get her outside, you know, barefoot.

Speaker 1:

I love it. I can't do that here in Montreal, but it makes sense in California.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, she's. She's my free spirit. You know, flower child, I know that's what she needs when she's going through a hard time. Um so, and that realization came after trying so many different things, like I, very soon into our mindfulness journey, I learned that my son is not going to do yoga with us, but if I sit with him and I guide his breathing, he'll do that.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for saying that, because I think that sometimes, just like anything with parenting, whether we're talking about tantrums or mindfulness or whatever tool it is I feel that as parents we're like okay, if this worked for that person, then let's say the breathing right, then deep breathing is going to work for me, it's going to work for my child and everything's going to be fine now. But there's a lot more to it, right, like? What you're saying is we almost have to start testing a few things to see, like, will this work with that child? Maybe not, maybe this will work with the other child, but really, taking the time, and the second thing I've noticed from what you just said is you're very attuned to their. I guess you could picture it as a battery, right, like when they're kind of drained and they need to refill or recharge that battery, you seem to be very connected to that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I thank my mindfulness practice for that, because I am able to just stop and be quiet and sit with my feelings and be present. And if you don't learn how to do that, you won't be able to really acknowledge your feelings, label them and then learn how to do that. You won't be able to really acknowledge your feelings, label them and then learn how to manage them.

Speaker 1:

Right, right. What does that look like? I think one that a parent might have a question around is you mentioned going out for nature walks? I think that's something simple that we can start with. Right, we might not know how to do the breath work. We might not know. Some parents struggle with journaling. They don't know what to write, and so the walk, the nature walk itself. What does that look like in terms of you doing that with your daughter, and are you guiding her in terms of what to think or what to focus on, or is it just about being present in that moment?

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, you can do it in a number of ways. We've done that, where we just go outside and walk and notice, or we go outside and we talk and play around. One exercise that I always like to tell parents to try with their kids when they're out for a walk is the grounding senses, five senses activity. Grounding senses, five senses activity. And it's it's you go out and you notice five things that you can see, four things that you can hear, three things that you can smell, two things that you can feel and one thing that you can taste. And somebody might want to double check me on that. Sometimes I flip them around, but you're going out and you're paying attention to your surroundings and you're being very aware of where you are and what you're doing, and it helps ground you.

Speaker 1:

I love that, and we can do that too, right, not just for our kids.

Speaker 2:

Right, and there are variations of it. You can go outside and, with your children, choose a color and then, as you're walking, point out all the things of that color that you see.

Speaker 1:

And it just brings your attention back. It's because you're so. Maybe mindfulness is a word that we hear. Maybe now I just realized maybe there's somebody listening saying what really? What is mindfulness? We hear about it being present in the moment. Is there more to it than being present in the moment?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think you need to know what present in the moment means, and that is giving 100% of your attention to your feelings, your thoughts and your experiences. So you're thinking about your mind, your heart, your body and you're connecting all of those things through the use of your breath. So focusing on your breath helps you focus on the inward. You know, look inward, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And that is something that takes time to do, right, it takes. We have to practice that. Yes, I think in our lives we're just so stuck on this autopilot sometimes that we're not aware Even something as simple as oh, I hadn't realized that I've been hungry and it's been three hours that I was hungry, right, we don't tune into our sensations. And it's the same thing with our emotions. I think that sometimes we easily want to push it to the side or suppress it or say like, okay, I'm still angry at somebody, but I'm just going to forget about it. We hear about sitting with an emotion. But what does it really mean to sit with the emotion? So what are some practices that you've done to kind of sit with that? And you know, again, this could apply to any emotion, not just grief. But how do you sit with that emotion?

Speaker 2:

A lot of times I will. When I'm feeling something, I will sit quietly, take a few deep breaths and just do you can do a body scan, where you're working your way from top to bottom or bottom to top and just noticing the feelings you have in different parts of your body, and what that does is that it gives you the time to kind of calm down and ground yourself, and when you do that, your mind is so much clearer. And when your mind is clear, you're able to tap into the emotions you're feeling. And what I like to do is I'll figure out what it is I'm feeling, but then I'll ask myself questions like well, why am I feeling that way? And oh, okay, this is why I'm feeling that way. So I'll give you an example.

Speaker 2:

This is an emotion that nobody wants to admit that. They have jealousy, right, yeah, right. So I've noticed that, especially since I've become a widow, there are a lot of moments where I feel jealous. I look at my friends who still have their husbands or family members who have their dads, and I get jealous. And the very first time that happened, I didn't understand what was happening inside of me and I was crying and I couldn't quite figure it out. And that's what I did. I just paused, looked inward and then I just figured out that, oh, it was that dinner I was at, where I was with this couple different couples and I noticed the happiness and the joy and the talks about the future.

Speaker 2:

And I didn't have that and it made me feel jealous and so I embraced it, I let go of the guilt about it, I allowed that emotion to pass and then I knew, moving forward, how to recognize that emotion and what to say to myself. Because I'll say to myself okay, reshma, you're jealous because you don't have this. You thought you would have this by now and you don't, and that's okay, you're jealous. And then you move forward. And so imagine if we teach our kids this that any emotion you have the good, the bad, the ugly is okay and you are allowed to have those emotions. But we want to work on how we respond to those emotions. Right, that's what's important. I tell my son all the time he's got anger and he gets angry, and I tell him I'm never going to tell you not to be angry, because that is an emotion that we all have, but I'm going to ask you to please learn how to respond to your anger in a healthy way and a respectful way.

Speaker 1:

Especially around that age too, right, yeah, you said he was 12. That's hard because things are changing and, like the emotions are getting bigger and and how do you deal with that? And so, having that sort of emotionally safe space at home to say like you can express that emotion? We're not I'm not telling you to hide that but, like you said, it has to happen in a healthy way. That is just better for you, you know, because we don't have to push it to the side. I love that you brought up jealousy, because I think that you're right.

Speaker 1:

I think many people you know we experience that and then we suppress that right, we don't acknowledge it, we don't even and it could come out as anger later on that day or that week and we don't even know why. I see the importance of addressing that and you mentioned the speaking to yourself and I think it's really important to just kind of give that a little bit more attention because in the end, it's not somebody else who's going to change that emotion. For you, right, when we learn emotion regulation skills or we practice mindfulness, it's not that all those uncomfortable situations or moments or emotions are going to go away. You're still going to have all those emotions, but now you're noticing it and then you're having the right conversation in your mind to say hi, welcome. I don't, you know, maybe now's not the best time for this emotion, but I see you, you're here and and now I need you. I know we're going to talk about this later, maybe, if it's not the right time or you want to do, you want to do it now. Let's go for it. You know, and you might journal, or that's the way I see it, because nobody else can do that. It's us and it's that's the tool that that's so important for us. Yeah, I agree. What have you done? I guess, now that I just mentioned emotion regulation skills, but part of all everything that we're talking about is is that and that self-awareness piece, and then learning how to regulate it through tools like mindfulness?

Speaker 1:

You mentioned anger with your son. What are some tools that you've taught your children, especially through grief? I'm assuming that anger. They talk about the five stages of grief. I believe anger is the first one. Was there a lot of anger at the beginning? Was there a lot of talk about what that feels like and how to cope with that kind of emotion around that time?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you know, Cindy, in the grief space we don't refer to the stages.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I didn't know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. So I don't know the history behind the five stages theory, but now people are very vocal about not referring to five stages because what that does is it puts a lot of pressure on people who are grieving because they expect to be-.

Speaker 2:

To grieve a certain way, exactly Right To follow the steps, yeah, and I'll tell you from personal experience, the emotions that, because I read the five stages as well, when I first lost Sean, and now, two years later, I can tell you those, all the stages are just intertwined like this. I mean, you know, one day you can feel sadness, the next you can feel anger. I, you know it can. You can feel all the emotions at any given time. And so I would say I still have times where I'm angry.

Speaker 2:

I'm angry that it happened, I'm angry that he chose that, I'm angry that he didn't get help. So, in terms of how I address it with the kids, didn't get help. So, in terms of how I address it with the kids, well, my oldest, the one who probably expresses the most anger, he is in therapy, and my middle one was in therapy and graduated, and my youngest has not been in therapy. So it's kind of interesting to see how, within the same family, we have different experiences with therapy. But we do. We just talk a lot about the anger and you know, I give my kids a space in our home for them to express their anger, even if that means yelling and screaming or throwing things, you know, as long as everybody's respectful and safe. But I give them that outlet in our house because I know that when they're outside of our home they may not have that outlet.

Speaker 1:

Right, so you know anybody who's listening I really want and this is why I brought up anger in particular because I know that in general that's a really hard emotion for parents to support in their children. You know, often anger is disciplined right, or that's a behavioral issue and it's not addressed as an emotion regulation skill, and so that's why I wanted to kind of focus on that for a few minutes, because what you just said is so important, right, that the home is their safe space. If we don't allow them to express their anger in a safe way, obviously, but I mean, even as adults, sometimes, right, like we need to let it out. Many of us and I've spoken to my friends, I know that we've done this but, like you say, like I'm just going to go get something at the groceries and you let it out in the car, right, like you, just you you find yourself a space again that is safe If you need to scream, if you need to do something, um, because it's it's an outlet, and so if we can provide that for our children and let them know that this is your safe space. Sometimes you'll be out of this house and you won't be able to do it that way, but here you can.

Speaker 1:

I think that is such a healthy way to teach them to regulate that emotion. We can't magically make it disappear, right, like they have to have some sort of outlet. Thank you for sharing that. I really think that that's important for parents to hear because, again, if a child is experiencing grief, we need to. You know, sometimes I know even something as simple as grieving even a grandparent or a pet or something with children Parents will say I don't want to bring it up, right, like I don't want to stir the emotions and get them, you know, to remember. I just we're going to think about happy thoughts, keep them happy, yeah, but we avoid the importance of allowing them that space to be angry because we're trying to keep them happy, but we avoid the importance of allowing them that space to be angry because we're trying to keep them happy, but we can't always do that.

Speaker 2:

Right. One thing I heard early on from people was oh, just keep your kids busy, right, you know. So it's the same. And like keep them happy, keep them busy, don't sit in it. But I thought, no, no, that is not what I want to do. So, even as a family, we openly grieved together and I allowed them to see me cry and to see me angry and frustrated, and I think when I did that, I made them feel safe in sharing their emotions with me.

Speaker 1:

Right, there's research on that. There's them feel safe in sharing their emotions with me. Right, there's research on that. There's research around. When we suppress our emotions, we're not showing our child what regulating that emotion looks like, and so expressing it to them is important. They have to see that we have all the same emotions that they do, and that we're coping with it in the way that we know best and that that's okay. Thank you for sharing all that. I really do think it's important for parents to hear this and so many aspects of what you spoke about I think any parent can apply in their home when it comes to mindfulness starting today, not waiting for something to happen, and then trying to support your child or your family, doing it now, because it's a tool that'll support them and protect them. What would be one thing that you can hope is a takeaway for a parent or somebody that is listening to this?

Speaker 2:

For parents in particular. I would want to remind them to give themselves grace. I think we are really hard on ourselves and the world just keeps moving faster and faster every year and we're just trying to keep up and trying to always portray perfection. Yes, and we don't have to be perfect. We just have to be present. And if that means learning mindfulness now after listening to this podcast, great. Or if it's another tool, that's good too. But we have to remember that our kids are always watching and they are very much in tune with how we are feeling and how we're responding to our emotions, and they mirror that. So it's really important for ourselves to give ourselves compassion, like we would give them.

Speaker 1:

Which is the why is it so hard? Right, like, when I talk to parents, specifically moms, and we talk about self-compassion, you know I'll say, well, if this happened to your friend, whatever it is, what would you say to them? And automatically, without any hesitation, they'll say, well, I would tell my best friend, you know, like, it's okay, this moment will pass, whatever it is right, like they would be very compassionate and caring and loving. And then I say, well, what if the same thing happened to you? And they would never be able to say that to themselves.

Speaker 1:

And so that piece, again, is another important one in terms of self-compassion. It's something that will not magically appear tomorrow. I think we need it's. There are baby steps towards that that can support us. But it's so important as well to express that compassion towards yourself.

Speaker 1:

And we are in this sort of world where it's perfection, right, and this is why, through my work as well, with Curious Neuron, I talk about emotions and kids, but then I talk about the moments we struggle as a family, and there are not every moment is perfect, and we have to share those hard moments to kind of help people develop those tools to move past those challenging moments that they have.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. We appreciated having you in the Curious Neuron newsletter. Thank you, I know the parents learned a lot, you know, and the mindfulness piece I wish was something that every family would take on little steps right, like even just a mindful shower every day, mindful walk as a family. I think we see it as something that is more complicated than it is, but having people like you sharing your journey and supporting us in learning these tools, I hope that you continue growing this in terms of supporting parents going through grief, but also the mindfulness piece of helping people develop the skill. So thank you for everything that you continue growing this in terms of supporting parents going through grief, but also the mindfulness piece of helping people develop the skill. So thank you for everything that you do.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me.