Reflective Parenting by Curious Neuron

Screen time vs Play time in kids under 5 with Tammy Schamuhn

• Cindy Hovington, Ph.D. • Season 7 • Episode 14

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In this conversation, Cindy Hovington chats with Tammy Schamuhn, Registered Psychologist, Best-Selling Author, Co-Founder of the Institute of Child Psychology and the Executive Director of Family Counselling Centres discuss the importance of parental involvement in child development, the challenges parents face, and the need for setting boundaries.

They explore the emotional struggles parents encounter, especially in the wake of COVID-19, and emphasize the significance of understanding one's own emotional wounds to better support their children. The discussion also highlights the balance between providing autonomy to children while maintaining authority as parents, and the necessity of emotional expression in both children and parents.

They discuss the critical role of play in child development, emphasizing the need for autonomy, belonging, and competence. They explore the importance of downtime and boredom for children's mental health, the challenges of screen time, and the significance of fostering a family culture that encourages helpfulness and collaboration. The discussion highlights practical strategies for parents to create a nurturing environment that supports children's growth and well-being.

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Her Book: The Parenting Handbook: Your Guide to Raising Resilient Children

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https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-child-psych-podcast/id1649611804


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Jo...

Speaker 1:

First and foremost, when your child is saying I hate you, you're the worst mom in the world. You know they say some horrible things to us sometimes. They're not saying I hate you. They're saying I hate this feeling yeah.

Speaker 2:

Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the Curious Neuron Podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host. If you are new here, welcome to this community. We are all about taking science and turning it into some actionable advice for us, the parent. There's a lot out there for children, but I think that we need a lot more support as parents to feel less alone in this journey that we are part of. And you know more than just understanding our child's behavior, which is part of what we do here. The majority of the work we do through Curious Neuron is supporting you in learning how to regulate your emotions and how to manage stress, because when we learn how to do this, our well-being improves, we feel more calm, we feel more connected to ourselves and we feel more connected to our kids and our family and our partners, and so it's really important for us to learn these skills that are all based in science and apply them in our home. Today we are going to turn the page, or turn, I guess, flip things around a little bit.

Speaker 2:

I haven't done this kind of episode in a really long time where I focus on child behavior, but within our community, I know that a lot of parents have kids under the age of five. That's what I've been seeing with the people that are joining the Reflective Parent Club, which is our new membership that we launched in September joining the Reflective Parent Club, which is our new membership that we launched in September, and so, knowing that when we have a child under the age of five, we tend to not think about our well-being as much, we think more about the behavior that we're seeing with our child, because that's what's creating the stress in us, right? So I wanted to make sure that I brought somebody in that shared this information in a way that you can apply in your home. That is why I reached out to Tammy, who is one of the co-founders of the Institute of Child Psychology. But before we begin, I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute at the Neuro here in Montreal, as well as the McConnell Foundation, for supporting the Curious Neuron podcast.

Speaker 2:

Without these two organizations that believe in the work that we're doing, which is sharing science with everyday people just like you, we would not be here. I would not be here, and the funding allows me to continue and to have a small team behind me for this podcast, to edit the podcast and put it out there and produce the podcast, and so for that I am forever grateful, because I enjoy these conversations, and I'd also like to thank you, the listener, for downloading this podcast episode, for listening to and subscribing to the podcast. Without you clicking those buttons and adding to the number of people that are listening. This would not be possible, and so, if you haven't done so yet, please take a moment to rate the podcast, to review it, whether you're listening to this on Spotify or on Apple Podcasts. Just take a very quick moment to do so, and if you do, send me a screenshot of your review and I'll send you a little something to say thank you, because it just means that much to me. And if you haven't done so yet, you can visit our website at CuriousNeuroncom or follow us on Instagram, curious underscore neuron or Facebook. Join our Facebook page, the Reflective Parent, or the Curious Neuron page, curious at Curious Neuron. These are all different ways that you can learn from us, but if you do love the audio the most, you might be interested in checking out the membership that we have, the Reflective Parent Club.

Speaker 2:

I noticed that most of the people joining are from the podcast, and so what's interesting is, you know, the audio piece is how they love to listen and learn, and so I create many audios for them every week so that they can be doing something else while they're walking, or doing something in the home or working or on their way to work, and we learn skills. The podcast is all the information, but there's so much information that we can possibly consume. We can educate ourselves forever without learning how to practice these skills, and that's what the membership is all about. I want you to have a space where you can hold yourself accountable. We do this by sharing our wins and our challenges with the community, but also by showing up every Tuesday. I have a call with our membership members at 12 pm Eastern time and at 8 pm Eastern time so you join. You can join at your lunch break or before you start work, or you could join at the end of your day, and I do this so that we can chat about the skills that we're practicing. And the biggest skill that we're learning is how to reflect and how to pause and say okay, I reacted to my child or I reacted to my partner. How could I change this? How can I start responding and being more intentional about what I say rather than just exploding right. Many of us struggle with that and I want you to have the skills and tools to be able to switch that from the reaction to the response.

Speaker 2:

If you are a part of a newsletter, then you receive the email on Friday morning. The Reflective Parent Club has a sale going on up until tonight, so Monday night at 11.59 pm, eastern Time, montreal time and what you get is a three-month plan of the Reflective Parent Club, so it's not in a subscription format. I removed that from the three-month plan and I think I'll start doing that slowly from the other plans, because I don't want you to be stuck having payments that come through if you're not using it. And so the three month plan. The reason why I'm doing this is because that is when, around two to two and a half months, when parents inside of membership have started saying I now see the difference. It took time to practice, to implement, and now I can see that I'm not as stressed as I used to be, I'm not yelling as much, I'm not reacting to my kids and I feel more in control of my emotions and my environment with my kids and I feel it. I feel calmer inside and so, coming in for a month, you won't notice a change.

Speaker 2:

It takes time to practice and implement what we are learning inside the membership or the club, sorry. So that is why I've put up a three month plan. The way that I've done it is you join for three months and I break down the payment of $50 into three payments, so it's $50 and something cents. It's broken down into three payments, so you're still paying per month, so that you don't you don't have to pay the entire thing in one shot. But after those three payments that are divided for the three months, it stops, your membership ends. And so if you do want to have me by your side this winter for the next three months knowing that winter months can be hard when kids are stuck inside a little bit more come join the membership.

Speaker 2:

This is a great time to do it and to test it out and to see the difference that being part of a community that is guided by science and by me, where you have me every week if you think about a one hour 45 minutes, sorry of a private consultation is 149 dollars for 45 minutes with me. People do it and that's fine. That's when you need very um, one-on-one. You know that one-on-one support, but in general, not everybody need very one-on-one. You know that one-on-one support, but in general, not everybody needs that one-on-one support. And so, for literally $18 per month, you see me four hours a month, and so click the link in the show notes.

Speaker 2:

Don't miss this sale. It ends tonight, and if you do happen to listen to this later in the week and you really want this sale, please send me an email. Info at curiousnaurantcom. I will see you inside the club, all right. So if you haven't heard of the Institute of Child Psychology, you can check them out. The link is in the show notes. They also have a book out now called the Parenting Handbook, and what I love is that they're two child psychologists and they take the research as well and apply it to the recommendations and the tips that they offer.

Speaker 2:

And so today you will be hearing from one of the co-founders, tammy, and we had a really lovely conversation, and part of the conversation is screen time, and I want you to be mindful because you know, sometimes there might be more direct advice when it comes to screen, and I wanted Tammy to be able to share this, because it's really important for parents to understand how pivotal it is to kind of to do our best to not introduce too much screen time before the age of two. But so if you listen to this and you feel guilty because you have been doing this or you haven't been following what we recommend inside this podcast episode, please take a moment. And it's OK. Yesterday maybe you didn't know that information, but today you do. It's okay, yesterday maybe you didn't know that information, but today you do.

Speaker 2:

And so what changes can you make tomorrow that will be more aligned with the kind of environment that you want to build for your child? And maybe you're in a situation that's very different than most parents. Maybe you are a single parent and really struggling right now, or maybe you're struggling with your mental health right now. Things change. We can't expect everybody to be able to follow it, but be mindful of what's happening in between screen time and I'm bringing up screen time because I know that's really a touchy subject, but it's not something that I want to avoid. I still want you all to have the right information, and so I'm just giving you a heads up for that, all right. Well, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Tammy. I will see you on the other side. Conversation with Tammy. I will see you on the other side. Hello everyone and welcome back.

Speaker 1:

And, as promised, I'm here with Tammy.

Speaker 2:

Welcome, tammy. Thank you so much for having me. It's nice to see you again. It's so nice to see you and I can't believe. I just realized this is the first time that you're coming on my podcast, so welcome. We should have done this a long time ago. I am such a big fan and I love your work and respect the work that you are putting out there. So thank you for everything that you do.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, likewise, you were actually one of our first guests we had on our podcast, like two years ago.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Well, you know, ok. So I always like to understand how did somebody get to where they are today? How did you build this beautiful parenting platform? How did you get to that?

Speaker 1:

Tanya and I my business partner and I'm both child psychologists and we met at actually a play therapy training because that's one of the ways we work with kids, especially young ones. You don't do talk therapy with kids, you do play-based therapies and animal-assisted therapy. And those are my two specialties is animal-assisted therapy and play therapy. So Tanya and I were in private practice. I said you should come work at the place I'm working at. It's pretty great. So she started working there and then I went off and we worked this practice for several years together and then she moved to Florida for a while and down to the States and I started my own group practice and then we ended up franchising it and but then, like I don't know, I was seeing kiddos and they. I loved my work and I love teens and kids. I just love working with children.

Speaker 1:

But what I was the most frustrated with were parents who didn't want to change. They're like fix my kid and I'm like, well, I can get your kid to maybe, if we think of it as a zero out of 10, I can get them to maybe an eight, right, but this unless you make some changes at home. Not to say you're being a bad parent, but like we have to make adjustments and until the system starts changing, to make some accommodations and we make it, you know, a better fit for the child or you know whatever's going on. Kiddos would end up back at my office and the parents were like it was going so well. And now, if you're there and I said, well, we can do this the hard way, which is really expensive, or we can do it the easier way, that it's going to be less expensive but more arduous for you emotionally, and that means you have to make some shifts and you have to educate yourself a little bit, because every child is different and your kiddo has really unique needs. And so I really enjoyed the parents who were like I want to learn and I want to make changes and I want to be a better parent. And so I started teaching At first it was like libraries and then at universities and then I knocked on Tanya's door saying I think we have something here.

Speaker 1:

I think parents want to learn to be better parents. There's this and teachers and other psychologists. So that's kind of how the Institute came to be, is we just really wanted to work with parents and professionals who wanted to shift the dynamic, and this is before the conscious parenting movement. So parents were asking for information like what do I do with ADHD? What do I do with anxiety? What do I do with this? And so we started training parents on how to intervene in mental health in their home Doesn't mean you can't, you know, go to therapy. But therapy was always accessible to parents and often with kids. It's the wrong type of therapy, because talk therapy is not meant for kids, so they didn't have that kind of therapy available, so it worked better if the intervention simply came from the parents.

Speaker 2:

So the Institute for Child Psychology has been around for a long time now, hasn't it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, about eight years. We've been doing this on a long time, but it's morphed and it's. You know, we do the podcasting too and summits, but it started off as live events in person with big audiences of parents who would come in and are like I want to be a better parent. My kid has anxiety or ADHD or trauma, what the heck do I do? And so we started developing step-by-step protocols, being like this is what you can do. This is how you change things at home for this kiddo. These are things for diet and here's for what to do with big feelings, and these are the type of therapies you can do. And here are strategies that I would use in therapy, and we adjust them, of course, for parents to be ethical, but still, so much of this work can actually be done at home.

Speaker 2:

I think actually probably 70 to 80 percent of it can be done. At end of the day I'm emotionally drained and now I think you know you're seeing all this education and saying, well, you can't fix your kid, but here's what you can do to the environment. And you see this and you're like, oh, I don't have the capacity for it. Is that the sort of resistance you see in terms of sometimes, you know, not having the energy or the struggling to kind of find that Like the parents themselves.

Speaker 1:

Right, yeah, I think a lot of parents and I think it's shifted a lot since COVID are burnt out, and that makes a lot of sense. They're working a lot. Things are very expensive right now. Parents are tapped out. You know we have this collective trauma. Parents are becoming more isolated.

Speaker 1:

So, yes, that's part of it is, I think it's just low resources psychologically, like they just need a maybe to break, and I think that's it. I think that speaks to our system of mental health as a whole in Western culture. That needs to change. Yeah, and some of it is, I think, parents not understanding how, when they were quite young, certain needs weren't met and those unmet needs are now rearing their ugly head in terms of their parenting, and that's not always fun to acknowledge and it's not.

Speaker 1:

Some parents aren't prepared to go down that rabbit hole of my own. Wounds are coming up for me, and it's almost easier to sometimes scapegoat our kids, being like there's something wrong with them, rather to kind of look inward and say I may need to work on some of this. Right, yeah, that my parents did the best they could, but I was not equipped to come into the, you know, to have these kids and to help them manage these feelings, because no one showed me how to do it, and that's the issue. There's, those neural networks aren't formed like how to deal with crying and yelling or even having, you know, empathy during like a tantrum, like if that was a gift never given to them. It's really hard to give that to your child.

Speaker 2:

And that's what I hear from parents mostly around emotions as well, right when, like the tantrum that you're talking about is something that triggers a parent. It's like why am I angry that my child is crying or why am I not feeling that empathy and the compassion? I'm just really frustrated and annoyed by this tantrum. Part of it is kind of digging into why is it making you feel that way? And I agree with you, it's sometimes part of we didn't receive that, and I'm glad that parents are reaching out and looking for resources like yours, saying how do I, knowing that I didn't receive these tools, knowing that I didn't receive this as a child, now what do I do? How do I teach this to my child and how do I model this to my child? Are you seeing the same with your community?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think so. I think more and more parents are understanding their wounds. I think therapy is becoming more mainstream Right and I think parents are wanting to do better. I think the biggest challenge is the pendulum always swings. It's this way in education as well, where many of us grew up, with these parenting experiences where emotions were swept under the rug and we were yelled at or we were spanked or like my husband jokes about his dad making him get a tree branch, you know when he wasn't listening, and you know whipping him with it Not hard, but you know enough that it was scary, like getting locked out of the house when they weren't listening, like there were these, it's just what you did.

Speaker 1:

And then we now have this generation of parents who doesn't want to parent that way and they want to be present and they don't want their children to feel alone that way and they want to be present and they don't want their children to feel alone.

Speaker 1:

But sometimes we go to the opposite extreme.

Speaker 1:

Where we want to, I want to say in quotes, if anyone's seen this as a video, like gentle parent, but that can also mean we're just uncomfortable with the feelings and then we end up being permissive because the feelings still scare us, like we're not going to yell and we may not spank and we may not lock their kid in their room, but we're so dysregulated by our kids' feelings still, so we're very shaken by it and sometimes that means we just want to placate them, we just give them the cookie, we don't set the limit, we just walk away in frustration.

Speaker 1:

And I think the walking away is okay as long as we come back and when we're more regulated, of course, and it's better than hitting your child. But it's an interesting kind of swing, the other direction, where parents don't know what to do, like they know they don't want to yell and they know they don't want to hit, but they're not sure how to lead their kids. And so either way, there's a discomfort with feelings, like, no matter what way we frame it, whether we're just sitting there and we're walking away in a huff and just we're giving them the thing that they want after they had the tantrum, just to like make it stop versus screaming at them. Either way it's, I'm uncomfortable with this meltdown, I'm really uncomfortable with this situation and I don't know how to handle it.

Speaker 2:

I love that you just said this, because this is one thing that I hear from parents where you just said, like I don't know how to lead my child right. And I think it's because, like you said, it's coming from that background of I was not supported in a certain way, right when it came to emotions, and now I want to do the opposite. Opposite, I want to do something that's best for my child or better for my child, but, like you said, they don't know how. And now I, here in Montreal, I work with schools and school boards and teachers that have you know, kindergarten teachers in grade one and grade two are talking about like struggles with, like having a child follow a boundary and a limit and the rules inside the classroom. So yeah, and they often bring that up to my attention in terms of like, what do we do now? And so it leads to me giving workshops to parents and trying to talk to them about what does you know?

Speaker 2:

What does parenting look like? What are the styles that we see inside of research? And you know, the authoritarian, authoritative, permissive and neglectful, and what does that look like? And often parents will say at the end of this workshop they'll say I hadn't realized, but I think I'm more towards permissive when I didn't do that intentionally, right. So I don't think it's coming from a place of that's the kind of parent I want to be. I think it's coming from a place of I want to make sure that I don't yell at my child, I don't spank them. I'm not like authoritarian in the way that I was raised, but now I don't know how to navigate those big emotions.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think Brene Brown said it really well when she said that parenting without boundaries is like allowing a child to run across a suspension bridge without handrails.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, yeah, that's a great analogy yeah, so that is the hardest dance is to say.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I. That is the hardest dance is to say I'm, I'm one. I have to be okay with all the messy feelings that encompasses parenting. But I also have to be prepared to set some pretty hard limits with. My kids like to be able to say no, and that's not okay, and then not take it personally when they don't like it. And I think that's the hardest thing for parents is we're like Kate, I have to set a limit right, and then you set the limit no cookie, no more screen time, whatever. This is. This is not okay. You may not hit your brother and then the kid explodes.

Speaker 1:

Who knew a child wouldn't like? When you say no, it's almost like parents expect them to enjoy the limit and I always have to say that's not the point. Like your child isn't. No, this isn't always the case, but often the case is. The reason they're acting out in the first place is that they have an abundance of stress hormones in their body. They're very overwhelmed by something that has nothing to do with this moment. They're picking the fight because they're full of fight, they're full of stress, and so when you set the limit which is needed, what often happens is a big, you know, explosion. The child says you're the worst mom ever.

Speaker 1:

I hate you and crying and throwing things.

Speaker 2:

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1:

And that's actually the answer to the problem. But the parents are like it's the problem now I was like actually, no, it's the answer, because this is how the body drains stress hormones. So when I I think, as a parent, when I figured that out and I think I was working with Gordon Neufeld at the time and he really talked about the release of tears and what happens in the nervous system the nervous system, the tears are always the answer, and so to me, it was one of those things where I'm like I welcomed it being like, yes, it's often if it's in public it can be embarrassing, but it's. I look at it as this really healing process, like it's just no, it's cathartic, and any of us, as parents who have had a good crime, we're so tired after it's like a reset button hit.

Speaker 2:

Feels good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I can tell you, as a therapist, I am much more concerned when clients don't cry.

Speaker 1:

So if I actually just did an intake before this and that's one of the questions I ask, can your child cry in front of you?

Speaker 1:

And if they're like, yes, I'm like okay, well, half of the therapy is already done, like your kid can already do this, like you're doing great. I'm much more concerned when a child is stuffing their emotions down and they're getting aggressive instead of finding their tears. So I always want parents to know being like yes, long tantrums can be horrendous and there can be other things going on, but if we initially can come alongside those those big feelings and understand like mother nature designed these very specifically to help your child yes, it can make our lives take a little longer We'd end up, you know, sitting on the floor. I've done this sitting on the floor and best buy when I'm supposed to be in the car getting groceries. That being said, you know I'm like my kid has a healthy nervous system and I'm giving my child a gift right now, because when I was little I wasn't always allowed to do that and crying actually as an adult is very hard for me now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, not being given that permission to cry. I get that, yeah, you know. The one thing that I've heard as well regarding this is something that you mentioned where the child might say like I hate you, you're the worst. And parents fear that setting these boundaries or these limits will lead to their child not liking them or them not being as close. And so this idea of if I don't disappoint them or make them upset, you know, or do anything that's negative or leads to a negative emotion, then we'll be good friends, we'll be close. Can we talk about this myth, right, that they need boundaries? They do need them.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely so. First and foremost, when your child is saying I hate you, you're the worst mom in the world. They say some horrible things to us sometimes. They're not saying I hate you. They're saying I hate this feeling. You just happen to be available because it's easier to. Always we do that to our spouses too. We take all the stuff in here and it's just easier to put it on people we love. So they're not saying that. They're just saying that I hate how I feel. I don't, they don't hate you. So one we just try not to personalize it and know that's just an expression of this turmoil they'll feel inside.

Speaker 1:

The second piece I really want to convey is we're not their friends, like we can't be. It's higher attachments hierarchical. It means that it doesn't mean we are worse more than they are in any capacity. It simply means we have more knowledge and they need to be led by somebody who is wiser, who is stronger, who is more competent to scaffold the skills they need to become adults. When you become adults, you've grown up, because we grow up as parents and then our kids grow up. Yes, I feel like I'm like this with my mom. She is a friend kind of, but at the same time, there's still that respect that she's my mother and she's older than me and she has been around a lot longer. It's not the same as my best friend.

Speaker 2:

No, it's not the same. Well, it's a connection, right, it's a connection with that parent.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I really feel that kids need to know that someone's in charge, because they have a very limited toolbox and it's very scary for a child to learn, when they push a boundary, that instead you know they expect a wall. They get a rotating door. Kids need the wall to know this isn't okay. Then they know this isn't appropriate behavior. And not only that my parent is strong enough to say no to me. They're strong enough to keep me safe if something really bad happens. They need to know that parent's strong to protect them if someone comes in the house or there's inclement weather or someone tries to hurt them. But kids will question their parents' ability to protect them if they can't maintain boundaries because that child is now in charge and that creates a lot of anxiety for kids to think that they hold all the power and then we get that's the permissive parenting piece where we have.

Speaker 1:

We want to be friends so badly with our kids and that that might be a signal. We need probably more adult relationships in our lives, like that were the leaders. The same reason why bosses shouldn't be friends with their employees. There's, there's a hierarchy there. Does that make sense? Like it's not healthy, right, it's very enmeshed Like it's, those boundaries are very blurred then, so it doesn't mean you can't have a close relationship. That will come later, though. When they're little, they need you to be in charge, they need to know. They don't know how to fly the plane yet, and as they get older we give them more autonomy, like that comes in the teen years, like we slowly give them more and more and we can share more and more. But it's done very slowly over many, many years, and there's going to be so much time where your kids won't like you for the nose in you, but they need them so badly person that they are looking up to in terms of what are the rules in this house right and what can I do?

Speaker 2:

What can't I do? It doesn't mean they're not going to push them. Even if you're a strong leader, a child will push the boundaries and see, like can I do this? Is this okay, Right, Like they're going to try those, and I think that's okay. It's not saying that you have not established the right boundaries or you're not a good leader for your child, but I think having that word in mind can support us, whether our child is two years old or 12 years old, because at two we're still the leader saying no, you can't do that. And then co-regulating and supporting that child and their emotions and saying I'm here for you, but you still can't have that cookie. It's seven o'clock. You're going to bed, right, Like that's the way that I picture it. Is that a okay way to picture it? Like for a parent.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think you know we can still give small choices, like for Pete's sake, like you still need to get them to bed, Right, you can give them. You know you can walk to the bathroom or you can hop like a bunny rabbit or we can have a race. Like you can be playful and give choices like do you want to? You know you've got a teenager do you want to do your homework in the living room or do you want to do your homework at the kitchen table? Like we can give them autonomy as long as we're getting them in the right direction of our but we're still getting what we, what needs to be done, done and making sure we're not giving kids choices on big things like you know what they're, you know what they're, dictating, everything you're eating for dinner or when they go to bed, or you know I don't know, just like if they're going to shower or not, when they're little. Like there's just certain things where we don't give away our authority, right, but there are some things that parents do need to let go a little bit. Now, kids will push back if they don't have some autonomy, if that makes sense. And it's this delicate dance and this is where play comes in and we have a book and we talk about this like kids need a place in their life where they can make choices and have autonomy.

Speaker 1:

And what has happened in our society is we've been so focused on kids being in organized activities and on screens that there isn't a lot of places where kids get to practice being competent anymore, where they get to make choices in developmentally appropriate ways. And because of this, kids are more combative with parents, because they want authority and choice somewhere in their life. And this is why Tanya and I push play so much. We're like they have no place in their life where they're in control. So now they're trying to control you and some pushback is normal.

Speaker 1:

But part of this is symptomatic of a society that rushes kids too much, where they don't have time to be in pretend worlds and to do dress up and make Lego and play in a puddle in the backyard. Kids need this and they need that for regulation too. So part of the puzzle of putting together for a child is, yes, co-regulation is very important, but we have to see why kids become. Dysregulated is part of the question too, and sometimes it's the parent's emotions, but sometimes it's, you know, it's symptomatic of an environment not necessarily meeting all the needs of a child, too that we have to consider. Not necessarily meeting all the needs of a child, too that we have to consider. And there are certain things the brain needs in order and the nervous system needs in order to be healthy, so the child can regulate.

Speaker 2:

Great. Thank you for bringing up this, the idea of play, because that's something we covered a couple of weeks ago and that episode did very well and people were like, oh, yeah, okay, so tell me more about play. Like, and this is something you guys talk about. I've spoken about this before. I don't think we talk about it enough, even if we're talking about it all the time. I think people need to hear it here in quebec. I know that there's a mandate to have play-based preschool, because preschool became a part of the elementary schools, but there was some resistance from both sides parents and educators in terms of making it play-based, because they wanted more academic style systems for preschool. That's not what it should be and we need to keep talking about the importance of play. So you have mentioned autonomy and competence, and what comes to my mind is belongingness, so these three being part of.

Speaker 1:

ABCs of play, autonomy. So that's their choices, belonging, which is like social play or playing with a parent, and that can also be belonging to yourself because you feel like you have self-esteem. Like let me be Claire Brene Brown would have a lot to say about that that we feel good when we can make these creative choices ourselves and your competence is when you can practice something over and over and over and you have the skills then to handle adversity later on. And kids always practice things in play before they do them in real life. So if kids don't have the stage in which to practice these skills socially, academically we know play is related to all kinds of academic outcomes you stick them in a social situation in a school, in soccer, in dance, in a play date, where they have never had a chance to practice said skills and they have no idea how to handle adversity or stress. They fall apart. So I just feel very strongly and this is why we wrote a whole chapter on this in our book we're like, if you don't give this to kids, there's going to be mental health outcomes that you're not going to like, and we're starting to see it more and more and as a therapist I can't believe.

Speaker 1:

I get paid to play with people's kids sometimes because I'm like they should just be doing this at home. This should be part of their childhood, but kids are missing out on this. So now the therapists are getting paid to do this, like we're getting paid to play with kids. And now, granted, it's research informed we do certain types of play, but it's because kids are missing out on this. We do certain types of play, but it's because kids are missing out on this and we've just decided that, yeah, let's give them, you know, just sit them in a desk and do flashcards and worksheets, and I'm like our brains didn't evolve to do that kind of work. The coordination's not there, the brain, that executive functioning's not there. So we're putting the cart, I think, ahead of the horse there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you touched on something online that I've spoken about, which was the activities. Right, we kind of fill the evenings and weekends with activities, sometimes without realizing that it's taking away that downtime. That's really important. That I see important for kids too, in terms of boredom and play and just kind of being in control of what you're doing. Like you said, I'm putting together a magnetic tile tower and nobody is telling me what to do and nobody is directing me and I get the autonomy to build this in the way that I want. There's a power in that downtime. Are you seeing that as well with parents where schedules are just really overflowing with activities?

Speaker 1:

Absolutely and my rule of thumb is like one activity at a time. It doesn't mean parents, we're not saying you can't do this. We're saying when it starts to take over the family culture and you're no longer eating dinner together and kids aren't playing and messing up your basement and they're not getting time just to play in the backyard or with the neighbors across the street, this becomes a problem or it interferes with sleep. The brain needs to decompress. So that you studied neuroscience, you're probably familiar with the default mode network in the brain. We need time to daydream and to sit quietly and be bored, to assimilate any information we've learned and to encode long-term memory. If kids you want them to be successful in school, their brain needs to shut down sometimes and just sit there, to go for walks, to ponder, to lay in their bed just that relaxation and downtime in order for the brain to categorize everything that they've learned.

Speaker 1:

If we constantly are in a state of entertainment and go, go, go, go, the brain loses all the information it was supposed to take in throughout the day. So all that hard work you did in academics is like gone. So it's just like guys. There's a reason. Mother Nature designed this. The kids are supposed to be bored. They're supposed to have quiet time. They're just supposed to be at home with their siblings or with the neighbor kids, and sometimes they'll just sit there and they'll lay on the couch and stare at the ceiling. That's. That's actually the brain doing some pretty amazing things. But you know, like they don't tell you this when you birth the child, there's no manual that says like these things are good, expect your child to be bored, it's okay exactly I.

Speaker 2:

I know, and that's why we have to keep talking about it, and you know there's no handbook. But now there is right, there's the parenting handbook and you have your book. I want to take a moment to highlight that. So, for those of you who are listening, we will put the link in the show notes to her book. I think it was from good intention, it comes from a good place, but it's just that we've lost sight of what we should be doing and the importance of boundaries and importance of rules and the importance of downtime.

Speaker 2:

Another one is you know you talked about boredom. We tend to fill these gaps and it comes again. Because I think we do this sometimes, because emotions will come about the same way that if we set a boundary and our child gets upset, well, if they're bored, it becomes uncomfortable for them and it becomes uncomfortable for us. And then what do we do? We fill it up with screen time. Sure, turn on the TV. Here's an iPad, here's my phone, just stop complaining. And I think that we have to catch ourselves in those moments with everything that I do here. I never want a parent to feel bad, but I want them to gain insight and say well, tomorrow, what can I do differently? And so what have you shared in terms of your book or your work, in terms of supporting a parent who might notice okay, my child has never been bored because I fill in those gaps. How can I stop that, knowing that there's going to be pushback?

Speaker 1:

The biggest thing I would say is you're going to have to lock up your screens literally. Yeah, we lock them up. We bought something from Amazon that locks everyone's devices away. That was the biggest one. Or be getting an app that turns off the Wi-Fi in your house, like I think that so we aren't tempted to run to screens right away, and for, depending if you have young kids or teenagers, is making sure we have ample stuff to entertain that they can entertain themselves with. You'd be surprised, like if you have things like even my 10-year-old will, because we say no screens.

Speaker 1:

So she's allowed to play music though so she listens to. We have an mp3 player for her and she's making doll houses out of cardboard now and we have hot glue guns and so she's just designing these dolls that she does these elaborate plays with. And my son has now he reads If he can't have a screen. He's learned to read graphic novels. He really enjoys that, and my 16-year-old is busy on our farm, so she does a lot of stuff outdoors. That's her big thing and loves to listen to music and to draw and things like that. But we've got to create space for them to be creative and be prepared for pushback and not cave. It's going to take a few weeks if you've never done this, but as long as you have some art materials in your house, you have books in your house, they have a place to listen to music. So that's why I say get an MP3 player so they can still have something if they're used to something. They need some stimulation. You know building things we want if you've young kids, stuff for dress up and things like markers and paint and clay and so all this like stuff where kids can be creative. You know sporting equipment. So like if your kids like sports, like if they can go to some place and there's a trampoline or skipping ropes and balls. Kids entertain themselves for thousands of years. They have not lost that. Like we only had devices in the last what, since television was in the 1950s and we only what the iPhone was released in 2009? Mm-hmm. So yeah, it's not a long time.

Speaker 1:

I assure you they can do this, but you've got to give space for their brain to kind of readjust and go in a different gear. And so I said make the space for them and when they come to you and they say they're bored, I'm like that must be really hard to be bored. But being with, I told my kids since they were little, being bored is really good for your brain. And like that's all you're going to tell me, I'm like, yeah, at one point the pushback came.

Speaker 1:

I said you know, if you're really bored, I've got some chores if you want to do them around the house. I've got a whole list of things and sometimes when they were little they wanted to do chores with us because you know, when they're tiny they want to do everything their parents do. So that could backfire or you could think of as an opportunity to train them, to get them on housework. So I took advantage of that many times. But you know, once they get a little older, if you give them that option, they're like I'll figure it out and they do. They will find something else to do because they don't want to do that. And it really just takes consistency of your response of being like that's really hard to be bored. You know a kiddo, you've got a whole basement of stuff downstairs and, honestly, tani's the same way. We just leave them to their devices, and I don't mean devices, I mean they have to figure it out and they just know we're not going to cave. Then I'm just amazed with the stuff that they come up with.

Speaker 2:

Right, and that's why they won't push too hard at some point, because they know it doesn't matter what I say. There's no screen, there's just no screen.

Speaker 1:

And it doesn't mean we can't watch. We can't have it sometimes, but it's not like I live in a screen-free home. It's very limited as to how often they have it.

Speaker 2:

And it's possible, and I don't want a parent thinking that they have to go to the extreme of no screens, but at least just being mindful. Like, what does screen time look like in my home? What does it look like for me as the adult? What does it look like for my kids? Right, because we have to be mindful of what we're modeling for our children as well. And having you know limits and boundaries around screens in our home, I think is healthy.

Speaker 2:

No screens at the dinner table, no screens upstairs for us you know we have. These are the rules in our home. There is no, there is no phone on the table, phones are turned off. Dinner time is very important in our home and then when it's bedtime there are no phones that go upstairs. So no, no ipads, no phones that go upstairs, and there's very limited time in terms of screen time. So it's possible, like people say sometimes, like how do you do it with three kids that are small? It's just possible. Like you said, they stay busy, they know it doesn't matter what they ask me. If it's not 3.30, it's not screen time in our home, and so don't ask me any questions.

Speaker 1:

The longer we can wait, the better too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, when they're small.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, my son didn't see a TV or a screen near the Tanya's until they were two. No screen, no TV, no, anything Right, same yeah, like they were. Just that was the culture of our family, where we just said no. I think the only exception would have been video time, like where we would FaceTime family members. So, to be fair, like we knew the research was okay with that if it's someone they had a connection to. But so we very gradually introduced television and I don't know if they even saw an iPad Maybe they were six, like we're Right, and even then it was a very.

Speaker 1:

It was the family minimum so it's a little harder retroactively if you have to back things up, but I have a blended family and we had to introduce my 10 year old now she's 16 had had no limits on screens her whole life and to retroactively go back was the most painful year of my life. Sure it's to start to remove that and call it back, if that makes sense. Yeah, and to this day she's now 16. And the rule is still during the week, during the week, monday through Friday, when she's in school, nobody is to have a device after 6 pm period, including the adults. So we read, we draw, we go outside, we go for walks. There's organized activities but there is no. They all go away, everybody's. And it's now become like a culture in our family that these are the rules, like this is just what we do and there isn't pushback anymore, like it's just they just learn that this is just what we do. We put them away, they go in the office, they get locked up. This is what we do.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I love that. And I also want to be mindful that some parents I know there's pushback when we post about this and I know I just had a conversation with somebody inside our membership that was saying both my kids have their own tablet and I can't imagine that not happening, because when I need downtime, this is what I get downtime I watch screen. They watch their own shows on their tablet and it gives me that hour, hour and a half that I need. And I said it's not about turning that off completely. If that's all you need, that's fine, but if that's what you're needing all the time, there's a very big difference. And that's what I mean by kind of assessing what screens look like in your home. I think it's always important to do that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I have times where I just want to watch a show and I'm like you guys watch your show, I watch my show. Of course, there are times for that, but I'm also aware that there's a difference between watching on a tablet and a TV, though, and so one of the rules in our home is that movies are always better than TV, and TV is always better than tablets. So we also have to look at the types of media kids are looking at and the quality. So it's about not always just about quantity, it's about the quality of what's happening and how that interferes with the brain.

Speaker 1:

So my kids just know the order of like how toxic things can be in terms of their well-being, right? So they just know if I'm in me, if I'm watching a show, they're like does it have to be a movie? I'm like yes, it does, and it has to be on the TV, it cannot be on a tablet. And they have to learn to negotiate and take turns, and this is part of you know, siblings, and figuring this out. But they do. They eventually do figure it out, because if they don't, then the TV goes off, and they don't like that either. So, again, it's about you know what they're ingesting too, that I'm really careful about Right.

Speaker 2:

I just want to touch on one little thing, one last thing that I saw on your account online that was really interesting to me, which you kind of alluded to right now, which was mommy, how can I be helpful? And I think that sometimes, as parents, we say, you know, do this or watch TV or go play while I do this, right, while I cook, while I clean, while I'm folding the laundry, whatever it is, and we forget that our kids are sitting there sometimes saying like I want to help, I want to do something, and my kids will often help, ask to help. Sometimes it ends up in a disaster. We've had, you know, pancake mixture all over the floor and they wanted to mix the pancakes, the stir, the mixture. I get it, but they often want to help and I love that you've brought that up. What advice do you have for parents who think that that leads to more of a mess, or clothes will not be folded the way that it should be, and so I might as well just do it?

Speaker 1:

Okay. So kids at 18 months have this beautiful thing that happens in their brain that says I want to attach through copying, through being similar. So at 18 months there is this big desire, especially between 18 months and three years, for kids to want to help. They want to copy everything you do. Jump on that immediately. That is where, if we look at, if you look at the research, the sociological research done by Micheline Duclef she wrote Hunt Gather Parent. Oh yeah, she has an amazing book. I've interviewed her a few times now and her research would state in some of the most helpful, resilient cultures in the world, they bring kids in. And any chores the parent does, the kids do with them, Everything.

Speaker 1:

So I started this with my kids 18 months. They vacuumed, they cleaned windows, they helped with yard work. Now is it done? Well, no, that's not the point. Right? We're training them to be helpful. We're training them to learn the skills of how to keep a household. We're teaching that there aren't, you know, static gender roles when it comes to division of labor in the house.

Speaker 1:

And kids then feel capable, they feel like they have a place in your family. So they have the. The offshoot is belonging. They feel, feel they're significant, that they can make a difference, and it increases their levels of self-esteem. And then when they go to someone else's house, when they see like things in disarray or someone cooks a meal, their go-to is how can I be helpful? But I always tell my kids and this is something we talk about I'm probably every other day, it gets just ingrained in my kids this we live on a ranch actually, so we're out in the country and I always tell them and I wouldn't be any different if I was in town this house does not run without all of us. It is the whole family that runs this ranch.

Speaker 1:

So the second one person is stepping out. It impacts everybody, so we're always looking for. You know, if someone cooks the meal, someone's doing dishes, If someone's doing the dishes, someone's clearing the table, If there is dirty laundry, we ask how can I help? Like the basement's a mess, it doesn't matter who messed it up, we're all helping clean it. And it's kind of a culture that you establish about and it's a we culture, not a you culture, and that involves parents doing things alongside their kids. And that's where I think the pushback happens is we don't want to, we want to rush through to get it done and this is where we reduce organized activity so we have more time to cultivate this helpfulness and this culture of social kind of appropriation with one another. Like I need to help and be you know, help with groceries and help the neighbor, and you're always just pointing their attention to. It is like what's going on in this house. But if you don't slow down, if you're always running between organized activities, you can't cultivate that.

Speaker 2:

Right, yeah, I agree. Thank you for sharing your insights. I think that all everything that you've spoken about, I think, allows us to remind, like it reminds us to kind of step back, right and evaluate what's happening in my home. Am I parenting, what style have I done? How am I applying boundaries, and is there room for pause, for time, for space in this home? Because I think all of that, you know, it's not about following certain rules, but this guideline allows us to step back and kind of see, like, what's the culture?

Speaker 2:

You've brought that up a few times as well, which I think we need to look at that. What's the culture in my home? You know, sometimes, when I talk to teachers, I what's the culture You've brought that up a few times as well, which I think we need to look at that. What's the culture in my home? You know, sometimes, when I talk to teachers, I talk about like the culture, the work culture that leads to you feeling more motivated and supported and feeling like you have your autonomy right. And it's that leader that sets the tone for that culture and says like, because if they're micromanaging, you don't have your autonomy. If they're being rude and disrespectful or they don't set the boundaries, you don't know, you're lost and you're confused or you feel disrespected.

Speaker 2:

The culture applies in our home as well, and so why not look at it that way and think about that question what's the culture I want to create? One that a leader is strong, that my child knows what the boundaries are and that they're given that space to again that autonomy, belongingness and competence. It's the self-determination theory. That's what I was thinking about before, which is it's our psychological need, and so we need these. Our children need them. So I truly appreciate everything that you shared with us, and I will put the link to your book in the show notes as well, and to your social media. Is there anything you'd like to share with our audience?

Speaker 1:

No, I think it's great. We you can visit us at the instituteofchildpsychologycom. If you have a child who's struggling with mental health, whether it's attention deficit disorder, anxiety, trauma, odd, ocd all the D's we have a lot of resources for. For parents who are like I don't, you know, maybe I can't afford therapy or I don't know what to do to support them. That's why we're there. We're there specifically. We want to help parents, of course, with general parenting stuff. That's why we wrote our book. But the courses that we have are taught by some of the top professionals in the world in their area of specialty. So you're getting information that you'd normally have to pay thousands of dollars for in therapy in one place. So you know what to do with your child if they're really struggling. So you can visit us there to get the help that you need to support your child if they're struggling.

Speaker 2:

And I know there are lots of people that either here in Canada as well can't get you know, can't see somebody. I know somebody that was on a waiting list for six months and still hadn't heard back, and so it's important to have resources like yours. So thank you so much. I appreciate you and Tanya very much in the work that you guys do. Thank you again. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Please take a moment to share this with a friend, a coworker, send it in an email or share it on social media. You can tag us at curious underscore neuron on Instagram and don't forget to leave a rating and review. It helps so much with the metrics and it allows us to continue this podcast, so it would mean the world to me.