Curious Neuron Podcast

The Hidden Struggles of New Fathers with Dr. Pierre Azzam

• Cindy Hovington, Ph.D. • Season 7 • Episode 12

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In this conversation, Dr. Pierre Azzam discusses the intersection of mental health and professional coaching, particularly focusing on the experiences of fathers. He highlights the stigma surrounding mental health for men and the importance of understanding postpartum depression in fathers. The conversation emphasizes the need for compassionate communication and support for men experiencing mental health challenges, especially during the transition to fatherhood.

We tackle the sensitive subject of postpartum depression in men, shattering the misconceptions that it only affects women. Men may manifest this condition through anger, isolation, or even numbness, and we need to increase awareness and support for them. The discussion wraps up by redefining resilience—not as a single trait but as a set of attributes that include courage, agency, and purpose. By modeling these for children and understanding the role of connection in mental health, we strive to promote a healthier, more inclusive approach to emotional well-being for fathers and families alike.

Follow BraverMan and Dr. Azzam's work:

https://www.bravermancoaching.com/

Follow him on Instagram:
@braver.man

Listen to similar podcast episodes:

  1. The science of happiness
  2. The power of community for dads
  3. Empowering dads to express emotions
  4. How my grandpa taught me resilience 

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Speaker 1:

Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the Curious Neuron podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host. If you are a parent and you are looking for a space that teaches you emotion regulation skills and shares the science behind why emotions are important and how you can support your child's emotional development, then you are at the right place. I believe that if we truly want to support the next generation, we need to focus on parental well-being, and when I think about parental well-being, I think about learning how to manage emotions and stress and when we learn these really important skills and I keep emphasizing the word skills, because it's not something that just magically appears in our lives, and it's not just something that we can do tomorrow just by listening to one podcast, including this one it is something that takes practice, and so the goal of this podcast is to bring important people to the forefront researchers, clinicians, people that are trying to make a difference in their lives and the lives of others, so that you can have the tools and the skills available to you and see what works best for you and your family, because not everybody will apply what they learn here in the same way. If you are new here, welcome. We have not just the Kirsten Rohn podcast, but there's kirstenrohncom, where you can find articles that are written by graduate students and researchers and clinicians. We are trying to pull out all the important signs so that you have it readily available to you, and it's not just there, but it's translated in a way that's very easy for you to understand. We also have social media accounts Curious underscore Neuron on Instagram or our Facebook page, curious Neuron.

Speaker 1:

And if you're somebody who thinks that you need perhaps a little bit more support, maybe you weren't given those tools when you were young. Maybe your family didn't offer you, you know, support when it came to learning how to cope with all different types of emotions, not just anger and anxiety. But you know, what do I do with this sadness, what does it mean to sit with it, and how do I teach my child how to do this? This is why I created the Reflective Parent Club. I believe that we need a space, a community. You can't do this alone. If you look at all the studies, what they keep coming back to is having a connection. A support group community back to is having a connection, a support group community, because if you are going through something, then having somebody there by your side really helps.

Speaker 1:

And within the Reflective Parent Club our new membership, we meet every single Tuesday afternoon, tuesday at noon and then Tuesday at 8 pm Eastern time. I did this because I knew that there would be parents that would want to join when they're not at home, because when you're home sometimes there's no downtime and then I knew that there were parents that wanted personal time at the end of the day, and so this is time for you to schedule in a pause into your week, and I'm blown away by the connection that this group has created. We started this summer and had our pre-launch, so a very small group of parents and moms that came together and there's dads inside the membership as well, but we came together to kind of test things out. Every week I would change things up a little bit. They stood with me, they hung out with me and helped me figure out what would work best, and when we launched in September, we had a better structure and these parents are just there for each other Every Tuesday. We can see that now we're starting to know each other's stories and people are opened about what they're struggling with. They talk about struggling with self-compassion. They talk about having yelled at their child and now the guilt is there. And then we as a community come in to support them, and I I'm there every single Tuesday. I try to bring in the science, and so it's this really beautiful mix, honestly, of merging everything together this community and science and support and education and learning into one membership.

Speaker 1:

If you do want to give it a try, I want to make sure that you have enough time to decide if this is something that you want and if it's something that makes sense for your life. And so, when you join the Reflective Parent Club, you don't pay for two weeks, you put in your credit card, but then you wait for two weeks and then if, before the two weeks, you decide I don't want this, this is not something that works well for me. I'm, you know, I don't know, I don't have the time which, by the way, one hour in a week to support your mental health and well-being. If there's no time, I need to remind you how important your needs are as a parent, and if we just keep giving and giving and giving and giving, well, no wonder we are seeing this level of stress and burnout in parents. So, one hour of your time a week, and then there's little audio. So if you listen to a podcast already and this is your way of learning it is all based on audios and little videos that you can watch on your spare time, but the audios you can listen to that wherever you want. There's the app that's on your phone so you don't have to be on your computer. And after these two weeks, if you decide it's not for you, you cancel it and you continue on your way.

Speaker 1:

So at the end of the month. So we have an expert every single month, and this month we have a family and teen coach. So she's going to be helping us understand emotions and behavior when you're in the preteen stage, going up into the teenage years, and how we as parents can support children, considering all the emotional intelligence research, and how we can make sure that we continue to build a very strong relationship with their child and understand the struggles that they might be having. So I'm excited for her to come at the end of the month and so come, have a look at the membership. The link is in the show notes and if you're not ready for the membership, I have a free parental starter kit for you a parental wellbeing starter kit so that you can download this free 40 page PDF and just start doing the work in terms of reflections that allow you to see, okay, how am I reacting or responding to my needs, how am I reacting and responding to my partner when we have an argument? How am I reacting or responding to my child, and how can I step back and truly make a difference in how I show up for myself, my partner and those around me and my child?

Speaker 1:

And, as always, before I begin, I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute, as well as the McConnell Foundation. Both of these organizations believe in the importance of sharing science with everyone, as we do here at Curious Neuron, and so I'm grateful that we have their support and, by the way you know, without their support, this podcast would not exist, and so I really need a favor from you. If you have not done so yet, if you have not rated the podcast, so share the podcast in parent groups on Facebook. Share your favorite episode. Share your favorite episode in a newsletter if you're at work. Share it with colleagues so that they're aware of the podcast and they could share it with other people. The more downloads that we can get. The more we can grow this audience, the better guests, because when I get a guest on this podcast the big ones they are looking for stats their assistant is looking for how big is this podcast? And if we are not growing and we don't show steady growth in big numbers, then I won't be able to get these people either and I won't be able to get the funding. So that's my little pitch. All right, let's get to today's guest.

Speaker 1:

Dr Pierre Azam is somebody that I came across online. He is a psychiatrist turned coach, and this is what I actually find really interesting, and I asked him about this because I have been exploring the world of coaching and understanding what that looks like and it's reflection, hence the reflective pairing club that we have right, and the more that we can kind of learn this skill of pausing and stepping back and kind of looking at a certain situation from above when we have arguments with people or we're struggling with ourselves, it really helps us. And so Pierre changed his path and went into coaching and now he coaches men and supports them and supports mental health, and so we had really a beautiful conversation around mental health and men, and I just think that his work is just so important because of his approach, in the way that he talks about mental health and he shares his own struggles, and I think that anybody like the work that I'm doing when we are talking about skills that you can develop and you know things that you can practice in your own home, I think it would be so hypocritical if we never shared the struggles that we have, which is why I talk about my own parenting struggles, and Dr Pierre Azam shares his own mental health struggles on his Instagram page and his website, and so I do think that if you are somebody who, um, you know, really struggles with either understanding your partners you know your husband's, um mental health, and if you are a dad listening to this and you're like I have been questioning things, I'm not sure if I should speak to somebody about it. Have a look at Pierre's work I will put the link to his Instagram account at the bottom of this podcast, in the show notes and his website. Have a look and just start consuming a little bit of his content and reflecting on what he supports you with, and I hope that this episode will give you the guidance that you need.

Speaker 1:

I'm hoping that this episode leads to conversations in homes that are aligned with mental health and trying to support each other and understand each other. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr Pierre Azam. Other. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr Pierre Azam. Welcome back everyone and, as promised in our introduction, I am here with Dr Pierre Azam. Welcome Pierre.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

I'm really excited for this conversation because, as I was saying before, you know, curious Neuron has always been a platform that focuses both on moms and dads. My background is in neuroscience. I specialized in mental health and that was what I needed to bring to the platform for both parents, so thank you for joining me today. I love the work that you're doing and that's why I wanted you to come here to chat about it, so I always am curious to know how somebody got to where they are today. You are a psychiatrist turned professional coach, and I'm excited to know how did that happen?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thank you. Well, it actually happened through my work with moms. A very small part of my work in psychiatry was in the women's hospital helping obstetrics teams to essentially help moms to withdraw from opioids and alcohol opioids or alcohol really during pregnancy, which was quite remarkable, quite a remarkable time for moms and engagement for moms. But I became really interested in both the services that were available to moms after the fact and also what was available to fathers, which after some digging I discovered there really wasn't much. I became involved in the American Psychological Association's Division 51, which is the Division on the Psychology of Men and Masculinities, got to meet a few folks who do pretty amazing work and research with fathers and discovered there was a growing space for professional coaching and also for therapy with fathers and expectant fathers.

Speaker 2:

I knew nothing about professional coaching and loved my work in psychiatry, but I was curious about professional coaching and sought training in a program in Pittsburgh where I was practicing and started Braverman shortly thereafter. Really, my intention in seeking training in professional coaching was just to augment my work, to bring a different set of skills to the work that I was doing with fathers as a psychiatrist. But I really grew to love the practice and much of the philosophy, and so I try to mix a little bit of mental health, informed work and professional coaching in my work with fathers, but also have extended now to work with men at all stages of life and all stages of life transition, and that's really that's how I got started.

Speaker 1:

I love that you know. For me what's interesting is the aspect of professional coaching. I've been having this discussion with a few friends of mine where some who had this stigma around seeing a therapist or you know, getting some support that they might have needed, feel more comfortable hiring a coach and saying like, okay, I need some support, I need help with my life and how do I kind of work on this. And one of my friends became a professional coach and I remember the first. She was training and had to do a certain amount of hours and she did a few sessions with me and I was really frustrated after the first one because I said you gave me absolutely no information. She's like, no, that's not my job. And I said you just ask questions and waited and and created a space that made me very uncomfortable.

Speaker 2:

The space of silence.

Speaker 1:

Right, and and for me, what now? After doing a couple with her and, and then she received her, her certificate. But for me, what I learned was that there was a lot of um, that space had a lot of potential, and that was where I was given the time and the pause to think for the first time, because we're so busy getting answers, giving answers, always having an answer for somebody right that we're looking for the answer. So that was really interesting. How has that been for you in that space of coaching? Is it more? Is it well received? Have you seen a difference? Because you've seen both sides, which is kind of interesting to me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it is very interesting. You know, a lot of my work as a psychiatrist was not in the provision of psychotherapy. Much of it was early on in training, but a substantial portion of it was really medicine-based. I was working in the general hospital, working predominantly with folks who had life-limiting illnesses or chronic illness and were experiencing depression or anxiety or other behavioral or emotional conditions that required treatment, and so I wasn't in a position to see people for a very long period of time, and so there was a small element of supportive psychotherapy, but a very large part of it was in medication management.

Speaker 2:

I think for many men there is a stigma associated with mental health care and really with seeking mental health care. That's changed to some degree, but it's still very prevalent, and I have certainly seen that men who may be a little reluctant to seek psychotherapy might be more open to seeking professional coaching. I think the challenge is often that coaching as a moniker is used by all sorts of folks across very large ranges of training, and so it becomes extra important to ensure that the person with whom you're working is properly trained, and that's a different experience to the experience that I've had historically as a mental health professional. I have seen men come at coaching with a different mindset and different openness. It feels a little more open to taking action, thinking about the future, looking at where someone is in the present moment and where he wants to be a year, five years from now, and so I do think it breaks down some barriers around stigma, particularly for men, and so it was very interesting.

Speaker 2:

when I first started to get to know individuals who were mental health and are mental health professionals who work with fathers, they were often describing coaching as very akin to psychotherapy, but just without the sort of stigma, and it felt very much like it was semantics and some part of it, I think, is there is something different associated between the two. But I think men generally tend to take well to the action orientation of coaching and the future orientation of coaching. That makes it a little more accessible.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, and I could appreciate that. I think you know, I definitely think that there's a lot of space and we still need to discover what coaching is and help. That's why I wanted to just dig deeper into that, because we hear about it and you're right, I think. I saw an ad on Facebook last week and it said um, take our two-day or three-day training to become a neuroscience coach. And I was like what is that? That's right, it took me a few years. What do you mean by this? Right and I mean in three days.

Speaker 1:

Three days, you're a neuroscience coach it's, it's and yeah, so I'm really um, I appreciate that you brought that up because I think that's where I struggle with you know some people and becoming coaches. But also it's hard sometimes and I understand because, coming out of my own degree and supporting parents, I haven't taken training in coaching specifically. But then it's like what I've struggled for many years saying like who am I, what am I, who am I and what am I doing. Years saying like who am I, what am I, who am I and what am I doing. I'm taking the science and I'm supporting parents and teaching them what the science is in order to apply it into their lives in terms of emotion regulation skills and how you can do that. So I can see that there's a gray zone you know like.

Speaker 1:

But I that's why I just wanted to chat about that.

Speaker 2:

No, I appreciate that.

Speaker 1:

I saw a post on Facebook and I thought it'd be really important for us to talk about that. You know, there are lots of parent groups, mom groups, and this one mom in particular was talking about her partner, her husband, who they had an eight month old baby, and she said I don't know who he is anymore. He is angry, he's mean, he is not himself. We had, you know, five years together before the baby and we had a wonderful relationship. He was a very caring husband. I would have lovely conversations with him. Now I can't speak to him and he's just not himself. She said I don't know what to do. Has anybody experienced this? And this is.

Speaker 1:

You know, there are pros and cons to having these Facebook groups, but what was interesting is, by the time I saw this, there were about 50 something responses that were saying leave him. He's. You know he's changed, you know there's something wrong with him, maybe he's cheating on you. And I just was blown away by the response and so I hopped on and said is it possible? There's postpartum? Just putting it out there? I know this is very different than the other 50 responses, but is there a possibility of postpartum anxiety or depression? Because men also get it. And then there were another 30, 40 responses to mine saying I had no idea that a father can also have this. So what can you tell us about mental health and dads that would support somebody? I know we have moms and dads that listen to this. Maybe there's a father out there who feels like he's not like himself and something is off, but can't really pinpoint what's going on, not just the symptoms. What does it feel like to be in that position, that state?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a great question and an important pose because I would argue I mean, I think I'll start with the caveat that I'm not a father and so personally I've never experienced postpartum depression. However, I would say many of the men with whom I've worked and much of the research around postpartum depression in men would support that that presentation very much fits with the common experience for men who do have postpartum depression. So postpartum depression in men is very interesting. I think I'm a little embarrassed to admit this, but it wasn't until I was years into practice that I was even aware that postpartum depression was something that men could face, something that men could experience, and much of at least the diagnostic criteria within the DSM, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, and the ICD, the International Classification Diagnostic Manual, essentially doesn't make very explicit that men can also experience postpartum depression, and so the assumption is very much that it's a mom's only kind of experience, unless someone were to teach you otherwise. And I think quite sadly, despite having what I would say is fairly extensive training, was never taught that men could experience postpartum depression, and there are sort of problems associated even with the diagnostic criteria around postnatal or perinatal depression, even in moms, particularly around the timeline and the risk factors. But I didn't know and you know it's a little embarrassing to acknowledge that I've learned more about the experience of postpartum depression substantially after training than during.

Speaker 2:

Another quite interesting experience is that men's experiences of major depression tend to look quite different, and I can speak this is one part where I can speak to from both personal and professional experience it's quite common for men who experience postpartum depression for the depressive symptoms to develop really slowly. They're pretty insidious. As opposed to mom, for whom the risk tends to be in the first few months, the peak experience of major depression for fathers is between months three and six and there are a number of theories associated with why that might be. There are theories associated with changes to hormones which impact the risk for depression. There are also theories related to the change in the responsibility associated for fathers, where mom may have to go back to work after a few months and perhaps there's a change to the responsibility for fathers between months three and six.

Speaker 2:

I actually suspect that fathers begin to experience major depression when they do postnatally much earlier, but the symptoms tend to be masked or missed, which is really common for men. So for men who experience major depressive disorder. It's far more common to have attacks of anger, isolation, indecisiveness, a refusal to engage with other individuals, a sort of demand for autonomy leave me alone. There's far more likelihood for externalization. So men who experience major depression are more likely to use substances or engage in gambling or porn, and there's a greater likelihood for men to describe numbness or even fatigue as opposed to sadness or tearfulness. Many men won't describe feeling particularly sad, won't show up as necessarily tearful, but feel a sort of numbness, and the mix of this change to behavior and the insidious onset has commonly been used to describe a change in personality to men who experience postpartum depression, and it's not a trivial percentage of men, it's about 1 in 10.

Speaker 2:

And so for moms, it's about 1 in 10. And so for moms, it's about 1 in 6 to 1 in 8. Right, there are some evidence to suggest that that is an underrepresentation for both mom and dad.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

When mom experiences postpartum depression, the likelihood for fathers actually shoots up almost five times.

Speaker 2:

So if mom is experiencing postpartum depression, dad's likelihood to experience major depression is somewhere between one and two and one and four, and so it's far more common than I think we acknowledge, and certainly than we acknowledge and far more common than we can even identify, and because there is a lot of stigma around identifying features of major depression for men, the likelihood is that most of us mask those symptoms, even if we do experience it, and so, yeah, it's a unique syndrome that has gotten more attention, but it's still quite underrepresented in research.

Speaker 1:

Right, what if someone is listening to this and they've noticed whether it's postpartum or later on in their relationship and they notice that their husband might be exhibiting some of these symptoms that you mentioned? This summer I had this mission to speak to 100 parents and 90 ended up being moms. So I spoke to many moms. There were a few dads, but you know, what was interesting to me is that what I would hear from moms is in retrospect I think I needed help, or in retrospect I don't think I was well, you know, last year, or during the pandemic, or when I had my child, and so it seems like we miss it in the moment. Right, and you mentioned that the symptoms in men are even, you know, more hidden, in a sense that it's hard to notice it and you might attribute it to personality. So if a mom is listening or a partner is listening to this and they notice these symptoms, what is a way that we can approach this with compassion, knowing that it can trigger anger, when we might try to approach our partner with that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think perhaps the start would be to ask more questions than anything.

Speaker 2:

What's fatherhood been like for you, what is it like for you? And to acknowledge, to acknowledge some of the ways in which fathers are showing up, if they're showing up. One of the things that I've appreciated in working with men, in both individual work but also in group, is many men are quite isolated. Experience of loneliness is really endemic to men and it's rare that a man will have affirmation from other men or anyone. And so I would argue, if a man is showing up, in particular around fatherhood, because if we look at traditional masculine norms, they tend to not. You know there's a place for fatherhood, but they tend not to emphasize the role of caregiving, the empathy and compassion that's associated with fathering, the hands-on experiences, particularly early on. I should mention too, for both moms and dads. The risk for major depression and other mental health conditions is really higher in the first year postpartum, which is important to acknowledge because the ICD and the DSM both under-report that risk, that timeline. I believe the ICD suggests that a major depressive episode is postnatal or perinatal if it's within the first six weeks after delivery. For the DSM it's within the first four weeks, but research for moms and dads both suggests actually that risk is high in the first year, and so it's important to acknowledge that both moms and dads may experience mental health conditions that are associated with the perinatal period well into the first year, and for fathers that's particularly the case, with this peak at three to six months.

Speaker 2:

So part of it may be asking what this experience is like for you. What is it like for you to be a dad? Where might you be experiencing a sense of pride or satisfaction? It's really tough for men to acknowledge that we might need help or even value help, and I think even the wording tends to be important. The semantics are important for guys. We may not always acknowledge it, but I think there's something to it.

Speaker 2:

Needing help feels very different than connecting with someone who might be able to support you in being a good dad or meeting with other men who are experiencing early fatherhood.

Speaker 2:

There's something a little bit Well, not a little bit different.

Speaker 2:

There's something quite a lot different between acknowledging I'm deficient in some way and essentially going from a place of where I am currently to a place that I want to be or a place that I feel proud of, the way they're showing up as fathers or as husbands in a way that we may not be able to acknowledge we're deficient or we absolutely need help from somebody in order to make it work.

Speaker 2:

So, I think, approaching with curiosity more questions than suggestions, and suspending judgment, maybe even acknowledging I've seen you try to show up in this way or that way as a father and acknowledging the value that a man is bringing to the home. I mean, this is all assuming that he is, assuming that he's engaged and wants to engage, even acknowledging efforts, even if a man may undermine them, because we know that the experience of depression interferes with our capacity, regardless of gender, to acknowledge our worth. And so I've seen many men who've shown up really quite engaged, or attempting to be quite engaged, dismiss their work as fathers or dismiss their worth even as fathers, and it's tragic. It's tragic for any parent, but there's a slew of male stigma that I think makes it so difficult for men.

Speaker 1:

Well, I was going to bring up the vulnerability piece because I'm thinking of this conversation that you just sort of you know, painted for us and I think that it might take a couple trials for some people, right? Because I don't think that, even if you're being very careful with your words, I'm just thinking of something as simple as like are you okay? And hearing like I'm fine, right, like and it's coming from a good place, but then you get that wall and then you'll notice something is off and say do you need any? You might say do you need help? Or is everything okay? Do you need a moment, do you need a day to step out Like, what do you need from me? And you get I'm fine.

Speaker 1:

And so how do we, knowing that maybe there are some dads out there or men that really struggle with asking for help or even acknowledging that something is off, maybe feeling less than because something is off and we don't want them to feel that way, how can we be mindful of these walls that they might have, that were built over decades? Right, it's not just, it didn't just appear. How do we support them with that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, maybe that's a whole podcast.

Speaker 2:

another hour Well, it might be, but I think that there are some important tools, the first being. I generally tend to avoid binary Are you okay or are you not okay? I think the general tendency for men and I do this too is to assume that if I'm not okay, I am a burden.

Speaker 2:

Right and so it may be helpful to approach a little more openly how are you doing? Doing or even after I mean I've seen this done for parents of toddlers after a tantrum just approaching one another and saying that was a tough one, and you know, somehow we got through it together. What was that like for you? It was really tough. For me, maybe.

Speaker 2:

Normalizing the experience of acknowledging the difficulty tends to go a long way, particularly for men. I find this to be true in men's groups, which is why I found myself taking a turn from doing strictly one-on-one work to working with men in teams or in groups. There's something really important to being able to see another man who shares a lot of the sort of ideals of fatherhood or other masculine traits, being in a position to say I'm struggling or I'm facing this challenge. That goes an incredibly long way to allowing other men to open up and acknowledge I'm facing a challenge too. Men might not come out and say I'm struggling or things are on the verge of collapse, but they may be able to acknowledge a challenge that they're facing, and I think that there is something to turning toward the positive in masculinity, or even turning toward the positive and acknowledging what a man is doing. That is a little bit disarming. So, rather than what went wrong, what was the challenge that you like to focus on or change in some meaningful way in order to become more proficient or better as a dad? That is a different sort of take than where did you struggle or where might you need help, which you know some men can acknowledge, but many men, particularly men who hold on very rigidly to traditional masculine norms, don't they don't take very well to to traditional masculine norms, don't they don't take very well to, and so I don't think that's every man, but traditional masculine norms impact men.

Speaker 2:

I'd say even the most evolved and open man has faced some shame around falling short of really rigid traditional masculine norms, and I think that's a big part of why bringing men together to actually see one another in greater clarity is so powerful, because the assumption is everyone out there other than me is doing it really well. They're crushing it out there and I'm struggling in some in some way. I think this is where moms do it brilliantly and you know not working with moms myself, I'm sure there are different sets of challenges that are. There are challenges that are associated with every, every group and and anyone but I always so in awe of how moms come together to support one another, and I think that's happening in some domains for men, but it's still. Those opportunities are really few and far between. I think most men would acknowledge that. Probably most women would acknowledge that too.

Speaker 1:

Definitely that isolation piece and that feeling of loneliness from the parents I've spoken with. That was one of the top three, and so I think that it's very prominent in parenthood. Or even you know, just as life gets busy and we're at work and then we do things at home and we're busy with home chores and life goes on and we forget about taking the moment to sort of connect with somebody. And I think what you just highlighted is that feeling of you're not alone. And when you don't, like, we often do feel like we're alone. You spoke about just something as simple as your child having a tantrum, and the new parents that I speak with feel like how did I mess up? Like how did I get here? Did I get here? And and you're looking at this poor child who's just like not you, you gave them what they asked for and they're on the floor and you're like I've messed up, I'm the only one who can't parent.

Speaker 1:

And we hear moms say it out loud Many times. I hear it on the, on social media and we have a membership as well, and they'll say like where am I messing up? Like how do I fix this? But it's hard. I don't hear that conversation too. Like parents, dads need to know that they're not alone as well, and I really appreciate what you're doing because I think giving them that space to hear somebody else's journey and to say, oh, I've experienced something very similar, I thought I was alone in that. I think there's a power to that.

Speaker 2:

I think so too. I think so too. Men in particular, we tend to internally hold ourselves to a standard that can feel quite impossible and, in many ways, is socially reinforced. We think of the ways in which we see a real man operate, and that is quite often, as always competent, always powerful, always strong, always in control, always daring and willing to take risks, and that's just not realistic. And so the more isolated we are and we're quite isolated from one another the more we assume we're alone in not being able to live up to those standards. So there is something really powerful, as you've said, to be able to see another person's experience that is similar to our own.

Speaker 1:

You had a post, I think it was around resilience and you mentioned that there are some actionable steps to this. So first, I think the word resilience is, I think, of a conversation that was really interesting. I was at this cocktail for a fundraiser and a father came up to me and said you're Curious, Neuron, aren't you? And I said yes, and he said, okay, well, I have something I want to talk to you about. And I was like, all right, let's go. And he said I believe he says my daughter is just a wuss at everything, she is not a resilient child, and I believe every child needs to be bullied to some extent so that they build resiliency, so that they become resilient. Right, it led to quite a conversation I bet.

Speaker 1:

My values are curiosity and compassion, and so I always ask more questions and try to appreciate where they're coming from. That one was hard.

Speaker 2:

It was really hard.

Speaker 1:

So I know that there are parents listening to this, or fathers as well, right Saying I need to model what resilience looks like for my child, and so that means that you know kind of what you painted in the sense of this idea of what society has as a father right, and this toughness and being brave and supporting your family no matter what, and being there and being the pillar that's a lot of pressure. So where does resilience fall into this and how do you define that?

Speaker 2:

Resilience is such an interesting term because it's often seen as a binary I either have it or I don't, and as a trait it's sort of interesting because my experience with resilience has really grown out of working palliative care, so a big part of my work was being a devoted psychiatrist within a palliative care service and there quite often people experience demoralization, this loss of hope, loss of meaning, quite often feeling of helplessness, and there it was very much. There's very much an emphasis on defining vulnerabilities and turning them essentially into resiliencies like coherence or connection or hope or agency or purpose or courage, which isn't fearlessness, it is identifying the fear and engaging in a behavior that carries forward my values or my intentions in spite of the fear and in gratitude. I think there's some value to breaking down the idea of resilience, because otherwise it feels like a have or a have-nots kind of a situation. I'm either strong or I'm weak, and I said this a lot.

Speaker 2:

I think men in particular, we tend to be kind of extremists in that we fear if we enter into a gray zone we're going to deviate to a place of complete lack. If I show a little bit of vulnerability, I'm going from a place of strength to being a wuss to being weak. So I actually think that there's something really important in fathers demonstrating strength plus a bit of vulnerability, so that there isn't a sense of haves versus have-nots, and acknowledging what resilience actually is In this case, in the case of being bullied. I don't know that people need to be bullied in order to soar up the streets?

Speaker 2:

I would very highly argue against that, which I did. Yeah, I bet the argue against that, but which I did. Yeah, I bet. But I wonder, I wonder what's the strength of that father was looking to build in his, in his daughter? What was he hoping she might do?

Speaker 1:

and maybe that's just stand up for herself right, he spoke a lot about the mental toughness.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, my hope is that she might see in herself some strength without having to be bullied Certainly not having to be bullied, but not even having to be diminished in some way. And so I think, even identifying, getting curious about what that resilient sort of element is. In this case, it sounds like the resilience might be courage or agency, essentially the ability to move forward, recognize fear but keep going, and the agency to sort of stand your ground. I think those things can be built. Um, often they're. They're built by asking questions more than anything. From where do I draw my confidence or my hope? What am I good at? What do I feel really strongly or passionately about? What are the values that I'm going to stand up for?

Speaker 1:

And everything you just said I think is something that we can do as adults as well, right, we, we, regardless of our age. Coming back to those questions, I think is something that we can do as adults as well, right, we, regardless of our age. Coming back to those questions, I think, kind of help us not ground ourselves, but kind of recenter. I think it's easy for life to go in different directions and I personally believe it's important to come back to what are my values and what do I stand for and who am I, and kind of seeing like, okay, am I off in a path that I wasn't expecting? Or you're right, am I? This has something thrown me off that path, or how do I recenter myself?

Speaker 2:

so I appreciate those questions yeah, yeah, I wonder in particular, I mean, if we take the bully out of the equation or take the, I mean that person should, doesn't need to be in the equation in order to build resilience. The questions I might ask here are what actions are you taking to help you to show up with bravery? What feels important to you? What helps you to stand strong against challenges, particularly in those moments when you feel like you want to give up?

Speaker 1:

Which could be something like a math exam for a child, right?

Speaker 2:

A hundred percent.

Speaker 1:

I needed that support during math exams. I didn't like them.

Speaker 2:

I get it yeah, likewise.

Speaker 1:

I want to be mindful of your time and I want to bring up one word that you mentioned and that I've seen you talk about online. This word of connection. Can we bring it to that?

Speaker 2:

Because I think I just need to kind of strengthen the reason why connection is so important. If somebody is listening to this, if a dad is listening to this and does feel isolated, how do we kind of argue the point of the importance of connection? Yeah, I think connection has been underscored quite often of late in social and public health forums. You know, loneliness and isolation are big risk factors, certainly for mental health conditions, but also increasingly studies are showing the risk associated with isolation and loneliness for other medical conditions as well and for early death. And I think for men, a big challenge around connection is that so much of traditional masculine ideology supports self-sufficiency, being able to do it on our own, not needing another person, being the lone wolf. It's clear this idea of the lone wolf while very alive, I think, in myth or mythology, even in traditional masculine norms, is very much dead. The lone wolf is not strong. We need each other. There's no doubt about that, and so I don't think it's so much a matter of defining that we do or that we don't. It's clear that we do.

Speaker 2:

The challenge for many of us is there are barriers to our connecting with one another. We're not acclimated to it nowadays and so it feels a bit uncomfortable, not impossible to overcome, but sometimes it takes a little bit of a push. And there are many times where men get together where we clam up or we want to bail, and that's absolutely normal, and often a big part of the way in which we engage with one another is through common mission or common action, common purpose, and many of those forms, many of those commonalities, get lost with age, and this is true for everyone, regardless of gender, but I think it's particularly true for men, because that sort of common action, common mission, is so central to the way in which men engage, and it's rare that we're going to get together with a friend just to connect without a shared agenda. Men are particularly vulnerable to the impact of isolation, particularly with age, and particularly with age through midlife. A big part of our sense of connection tends to lie in our work and our livelihood, and so I think we need forums in which to connect with one another for a common mission that feels safe, that feels enjoyable, that feels approachable. That feels approachable and I would say their business tendency to think, man, everybody else has got to be hanging out and I'm all alone.

Speaker 2:

And the reality is that most guys feel the same way, and so I've seen tremendous value in supporting men to reach out to friends, to engage in activities with one another, even if that's not necessarily something really major or something big. There really is such strong value to connecting with other men and connecting with other people, but I think in particular connecting with other men, often because there is a tendency to think other men are doing it right and I'm doing it wrong, or I'm different somehow and I don't belong, and that's not really true. Often, the more isolated we are, the stronger those ideas become, and so it really requires connecting with other men to realize I've got some commonalities with you and I might actually enjoy spending some time with you. Even if we're not necessarily doing anything of meaning or value or value, even the connection itself is of such important value. Um, I'd like to see that rebuilt in society.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, right, and I think that's so important and such an easy kind of takeaway, right, if somebody's listening to this, just sending somebody a text message, or a partner supporting their husband, to say, like, text somebody, text that person that you met last time, you seem to have had some fun, maybe some loving support towards that, although you might again get resistance at the beginning, just kind of supporting them in that. And yeah, I think you just mentioned something that's interesting, because we might have beliefs that are not facts, but these beliefs that they won't want to hang out with me. What's the point of doing this? I'm better off just staying home. And why am I going through this trouble of leaving and doing it?

Speaker 1:

I know that we go through these thoughts and we do it too. Sometimes I've done it myself too. Why? Why I reach out to that person? You know that I met somewhere and it's just weird or I don't want to. So I'm assuming that's part of the, the, the challenge right of, of taking that first step of course yeah I think for anyone, regardless of gender, age, background.

Speaker 2:

I mean it'd be interesting to see how this evolves for our younger generations. I'd like to think that we can regain some connectivity. I'm sure that technology plays a huge role in this, and so it'll be very interesting to see how that emerges. But we've seen, even in older generations that's a big deal that somehow something that could be so connected impacts our capacity to connect in real time. We need that, we all need that.

Speaker 1:

So much I know that connection piece. Like you said, we don't need to prove that it's important. We know that it's important. But I think what we need to do is prove to people that they need to take the steps to make connections right. That's, I think, where we need more support as a society.

Speaker 2:

I think so too. I think so too. I think so too. I mean, you know, this is Cindy. I really appreciate what you do and your work.

Speaker 2:

I think this is quite often where I hear husbands, male partners they may not say this so openly, but I hear so frequently. They're in awe of how groups of moms or groups of women support one another, and I think there's some really strong value to building that for men. It may not necessarily have to be men only, but there is something really powerful, impactful to seeing other men take the vulnerable step of saying I want to see you, I think you're important to me and I'd rather spend time with you than spend time not with you. And it's funny because that's you know.

Speaker 2:

That's essentially what connecting with another person requires. It requires the vulnerability to say I care about you, I love you and I need you in my life, I want you in my life. Unfortunately, holding strongly to traditional masculine norms has undermined that. I don't think that that is necessarily that. That's always been the case. Maybe you know, see her and read stories of male friendship from long ago. I think that there is something that developed throughout the last century that has made it much more difficult for men to connect with one another.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I agree, yeah, and this is why we had to have this conversation. So thank you for taking the time in your day to talk with me today. Thank you, where can we learn more about the work that you do? I'm going to put everything you mentioned in the show notes.

Speaker 2:

Oh, thank you. Well, probably the quickest way is through Instagram. For folks who have Instagram, my handle is at braverman and my site is bravermancoachingcom.

Speaker 1:

Perfect, I will add all of that, and if ever there's anything you want us to share the community, please send it along. We will put the links and share it. I think the work that you're doing is so important.

Speaker 2:

Likewise. I appreciate you so much. Thank you Likewise. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:

I hope you enjoyed our conversation. Please take a moment to review or read the podcast. If you enjoyed this, and share it with some friends. I will see you next Monday. Have a beautiful and wonderful week and don't forget that your needs matter too. Bye.