Curious Neuron

Attachment, Emotions & Separation Anxiety with Erin O'Connor, Ph.D.

• Cindy Hovington, Ph.D. • Season 7 • Episode 8

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In this episode of the Curious Neuron Podcast, Cindy Hovington speaks with Dr. Erin O'Connor, Ph.D., about the complexities of the mother-child relationship, the importance of attachment theory, and the impact of parental stress on parenting styles.

We discuss the significance of sensitivity and responsiveness in parenting, the challenges of separation anxiety, and the role of community support for parents. The conversation also touches on the teacher-child relationship, the importance of social-emotional learning, and the effects of parental accommodation behaviors on child development.

Erin is the Director of New York University's Early Childhood Education program, Erin is a Full Professor and holds a Doctorate in Human Development and Psychology from the Harvard Graduate School of Education. She is also Chief of Education at Cooper - a platform designed to bring together parents, researchers, and teachers around issues of child development. She is also the co-host of the parenting podcast, Parenting Understood, which can be found on Apple and Spotify. 

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Speaker 1:

Hello, dear friend, welcome back to the Curious Neuron podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host. I am a mom of three from Montreal, canada, and I have a PhD in neuroscience, and my goal through my work here at Curious Neuron is to make sure that you get the science around emotions, whether it's your emotional health and well-being or your child's emotional development, I try to cover it all so that you can build that emotionally resilient home that you want to build. Many of us didn't grow up learning all the tools that we needed to regulate our emotions, and now that we're parents, it's really hard to model and teach this to our kids, and that's why I want to make sure that all parents have access to this information and, most importantly, the information that's science-based, Because it's through this information that you can take what you need that accommodates your family and meets your needs, and do what you want with that research and try to apply it in a way that makes sense for you and your family, and that is my mission here at Curious Neuron. So you can do this by listening to our podcast, as you're doing now. If you haven't done so yet, make sure you click on the subscribe button so that you receive the new episode every single Monday. You can do that by visiting CuriousNeuroncom as well, if you want to read our blogs. There are new blog posts every single week covering many aspects of emotions in adults and in kids, and so you can go there to get access to all these blog posts written by myself or graduate students in research and science. And you can also visit us on Instagram or Facebook. You can search Curious underscore Neuron on Instagram or Curious Neuron as the handle on Facebook. We also have a Facebook group. The link is in the show notes and if you need extra support, you can always join our new membership called the Reflective Parent Club. You can click on Join the Club on our website, or, if you want even more support, there is one spot left. I'm taking five people starting in mid-November as one-on-one mentoring calls, where I meet with you for 30 minutes every single week, privately. We even have a WhatsApp together and I am there to support you during all these big emotions in your home. I want to make sure that parents have access to the information in a way that supports them, and that is why our platform has support in many different ways, both free and paid.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for being here and thank you for taking the time to write a review and to rate the podcast. If you haven't done so yet, please do so. Please unclick, get out of here, stop listening to the podcast, leave a rating and a review. It means that much to me, because that is what allows us here at Curious Neuron, and the podcast specifically, to get support, as we do, from the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute and the McConnell Foundation. Both are the organizations that support the Curious Neuron podcast, because both organizations believe in the importance of sharing science, as do I and as do we here at Curious Neuron. So thank you to both organizations for believing in what we believe in here at Curious Neuron.

Speaker 1:

All right, let's move on to today's episode. I'm so excited to share this episode with you because Erin is somebody that I've known online for a little while now. I respect her work so much and I've been trying to get her on. We've been busy summer happened, lots of activities and we literally have been trying four months to schedule and have this conversation. I was really looking forward to having this conversation with her because her work is pivotal in the field of emotions for children and understanding the importance of connection and how emotion regulations build, and in the school classroom, how is that impacting our children? There are so many different avenues that Erin covers within her research and that is why I thought it was important for us to have this conversation and I wanted to share this with you.

Speaker 1:

Erin O'Connor is the director of New York University's Early Child Education Program. She is a full professor and holds a doctorate in human development and psychology from the Harvard University School of Education. She has a master's in teaching from Fordham University and a master's in school psychology from Columbia University. She worked with teachers in New York City schools and leads professional development seminars. She is also chief of education at Cooper, a platform designed to bring together parents, researchers and teachers around issues of child development. She is also the co-host of the parenting podcast called Parenting Understood, which can be found on Apple and Spotify.

Speaker 1:

To tell you again that her research is just some of my favorite studies to go over and summarize it's just not enough. You need to hear her say and summarize the research in her words. It is so applicable and simple enough for us to understand. We covered everything from early attachment, the importance of a relationship between mother and child, and, of course, this applies to father and child as well, but the studies focus on mother and child. In these studies that we'll be talking about, all of the notes and the studies if you want to dig deeper are going to be in the show notes. But, most importantly, we're going to extend this child parent relationship into the classroom and talk about the importance of the teacher-child relationship and how that impacts or influences the child's academic performance. I loved this trajectory of the conversation and I hope you do too. I'll see you on the other side.

Speaker 2:

Hello everyone, welcome back to the Curious Round podcast and, as promised, I'm here with Erin. Welcome, erin. Thanks so much for having me. I am beyond excited that we are having the conversation. It is a long time in the making. I've been following your work for a very long time and it's about time that you're here on the podcast. I know everybody will be just as excited as I am about your work. I gave the bio at the beginning, but I'd love to know I'm always curious to know how somebody makes their way through their research and academic career to what they are studying now. So what did that journey look like for you? I love that question.

Speaker 3:

Well, I was a psychology major in college and loved psychology, but also was volunteering at a preschool at the time and loved the idea of working with young children in that capacity as well. So I went back, got my master's in teaching, taught for a little while, went back, got a master's in school psychology, Started to think about oh, I want to work more individually, one-on-one with children. That got me into research, which led me to the PhD, which sort of combined then two of my interests, which was sort of seeing children in the classroom and how they interact with their teachers, and then also, you know, seeing how they interact with their parents and thinking about how those relationships really impact everything really Right their social, emotional development, their cognitive development. And then I've been an academic since 2005.

Speaker 2:

And here we are. I love it. It's interesting because very often the path isn't a direct, linear path, right, and there's whether it's our curiosity or something that we're interested in that kind of guides, the shifting of where our career goes and how we get there, and I love hearing that.

Speaker 3:

It's so true. I mean, I probably could have gone even like further investigating other things, but my husband was like, and now you are going to work?

Speaker 2:

I get it. You can't be a student forever, but it's fine, really fun, I do like it. Yeah, it's so good. You described what we're going to talk about today and I've never really looked at it this way in the podcast and so understanding the mother-child relationship, I think, just saying that I know that some moms that are listening right away feel immediate pressure when we talk about that and I know because, through the parents that I've had conversations with you know it feels like there's a lot, you know, on us and our shoulders in terms of making sure that we build a strong attachment, you know, and some mothers struggle with postpartum and wonder like, what's this doing? How is this impacting my child? So I guess, on a general overview, and then we can dig a little deeper, what do you mean when you say mother-child relationship and what have you found that?

Speaker 3:

is something really important for moms to know about. Yeah, definitely. So I've looked at it mostly through an attachment lens. So, really thinking about you know, how do we form these secure attachments that you know, we know are sort of most beneficial for children in the long run, and I think one sort of factoid that people can rest assured about is that the majority of children develop secure attachment.

Speaker 3:

So, you know, I think we worry so much about every little thing we do as a mom and as a dad, but you know, it's really this generalized, sensitive, responsive environment that you provide for your child. That's really what matters in the long run and that can look different with different children and it can look different with different parents. And, um, you know, the the important things are things like joint attention when the children are little, right, so that you're both sort of showing that you're interested in what your child's interested in and that you're attending to them. It doesn't mean you have to be attending to them 24-7. Right, exactly. Yeah, like free play is so important for children and independent play, and I think sometimes we're really hard on ourselves as parents because we feel like we have to be engaging all the time and in some perfect way, and that's really not. What the research shows us is that it's really this generalized environment that we provide for them.

Speaker 2:

I do feel that some parents, especially new parents, and maybe social media plays an impact in this in terms of like, oh, we're gonna get into that, in terms of some of the misconceptions. But I do think that sometimes they see it as an all or none, and I love that you just said all this, because there's a lot of gray space right Of like, there'll be days where you're not well and that's okay if you can't attend to your child the same way, but it's an average right.

Speaker 3:

Totally, and I think that is so important for parents to hear, because, I agree, I think social media plays into so much anxiety around parenting, because there's this idea. Oh yeah, I mean there's like a perfect way. Right, there's, there's a perfect way and that you know we all want our children to like, have a nice life right and sort of avoid bumps in the road, which there are going to be bumps no matter what we do.

Speaker 2:

unfortunately for them, um and just it puts a lot of pressure on parents, I think especially of young children no-transcript who was wondering why her, her child who was starting daycare, couldn't leave her side, and she said maybe I did something wrong when I was trying to build the attachment, but this is a one-year-old child who's struggling to, you know, build that relationship with a new educator. What can you kind of say, in terms of what we know in the research, to comfort these moms that are having a child that's starting daycare or preschool Totally Well.

Speaker 3:

I think there are a couple of different things. One is that you know, the same percentage of children are securely attached to have a parent at home, who have a parent who, or who has both parents or one parent working outside of the home Right. So using child care is not harmful for the attachment.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for saying that. I know that's a concern, and it is.

Speaker 3:

I mean, I went through it, I researched this and with both my kids I went through it, right, so it's like it's.

Speaker 3:

So you know these are your children. But then I think too, like separation, anxiety is part of a secure attachment too, right, so that's totally and utterly developmentally appropriate. I mean, we see it all the way through kindergarten for a young child to be reticent to go into a new environment, right, even when we, even when we measure attachment, we don't measure the separate, what happens in the separation. It's during the reunion, right, that the child is comfortable and happy to see the parent, the caregiver we expect them to be, which is so sad, but we expect them to have a hard time separating. So also that. But then there's a lot of research too showing the benefits of the teacher-child relationship for the child in the long run. So, having, just like children, from attachment relationships with their parents, their caregivers, they do with their teachers as well. And those attachment relationships we found are also predictive of things like social, emotional development, of achievement, you know, and sort of in the long run.

Speaker 3:

I thought, what was interesting is what we found in one study was children who actually kind of struggle a little bit with their attachment relationship with their primary caregiver. Those who had a secure, strong relationship with their teachers did so much better, so it even can act as a buffer and sort of an additive in a way.

Speaker 2:

right, the research suggests I know that parents that are listening are wondering you know so. How do I know? How do I know there's anything wrong? And I don't want to go into that right away. Or maybe we don't, I don't know. I don't want to worry them. But what happens when you do have either a very young child going to daycare or a child starting kindergarten that is crying, not letting go of your arm? I've seen it happen, I've experienced it as well, and you're like what did I do wrong? What can a parent sort of? How can they change their mindset around this moment? Now we know that that's not saying anything about the attachment style. That is just the moment and separation anxiety that the child is experiencing. How can we support the child in that moment in a way that feels good for us?

Speaker 3:

I think that some of it is in that moment and some of it is sort of around that moment. So, at home, talking about how much you like a teacher so that you know they hear that, they know that this is a safe adult. Talking about your own experience when you were little, like, oh, when I went to school, you know I loved my kindergarten teacher. I remember her Like these are the things, or him, these are the things that we would do, and really sort of creating that idea of a safe space even when you're not in that space. And then also you can you know schools are different, right, some how how much they allow you to do some of these things. But yeah, you know if you can sort of build in a little bit of extra time and that make that extra time a little less every day. So you know, I'm going to stay with you in the classroom for three minutes or whatever, and two minutes and one minute, you know, and sort of gradually the gradual release model of allowing your child to see you in the classroom but then shorten that time.

Speaker 3:

But some schools won't allow that and you know that's understandable as well, and I think in those cases it's even more important to create that sort of mental image for children of the safe, warm environment that they're going into by talking about it over dinner or, you know, talking about it on the way to school. Also, talking about what's going to happen at school can help a lot, like if you know the child's schedule, if you can ask the teachers for their schedule and say this is what's going to happen, this is who's going to pick you up, especially if you know maybe you have a couple different, you know you have a caregiver one day you're doing it one day. It can be a little bit, you know, just confusing for a young child if they don't know who's picking them up. So sort of walking them through pickup, assuring them that somebody's going to be at pickup, can really sort of help with some of that anxiety.

Speaker 2:

I do wish that more daycares or schools had the possibility of this gradual release model, because I do feel that it's comforting for the child.

Speaker 2:

I've heard daycare educators tell me that they don't do that because it makes it worse and they don't have the time, right, and so we have to be mindful of what that looks like within the classroom. But during the pandemic, some daycares had reached out and said like how do we? We used to do that, we used to have this model. Now we can't, we don't have the ability to do that, and so I would recommend, you know, printing a picture of the teacher, or just going outside and meeting the teacher, the educator, and taking a picture with them and putting that on the fridge, just because it aligns with what you said in terms of let's bring this person to our daily conversation so that they're not a complete stranger when we show up the first day. I was hoping, you know, I just wish that there were more ways to create that sort of model in any way possible, right, knowing that not everybody can do it completely, but doing it in a little way that makes it easier for that child.

Speaker 3:

Totally. And I mean, I think another way too, and schools differ with this as well. But I think you know, even if your school doesn't reach out and ask for information about your child, you can still email the teachers and say what they like this is, you know, sort of, so that they maybe can bring in a little bit of sort of knowledge about the child into the classroom and say, you know, oh, I know we like you cats, that makes the child feel more comfortable, right, like they already know them a little bit, right.

Speaker 2:

I like that. Yeah, that is so good. You had mentioned two words. That I know is not something that all parents would know what that means, and it's being sensitive and responsive, and I know that this is very important. There's so much research around that, but I know that not all parents understand that, because once I posted about this and somebody said asked me you know what does that look like? So what does it look like to be sensitive and responsive? Does it mean that we're making sure that we're not allowing our child to have any of these uncomfortable emotions? Are we, you know, kind of buffering any outside? You know situations that might cause that, and are we not setting boundaries because that upsets them? So what do you? What does it mean when you say sensitive and responsive? Maybe if you have an example or two in a situation.

Speaker 3:

Sure. So I think you know it's sitting with them in the in the difficult feelings. It's not preventing the difficult feelings from happening, so it's, you know, attending to how they feel, right. So when we say, you know, sensitive, responsive, especially around maybe when your child's unhappy about something, it's not saying oh, it'll be okay. I mean it's not like that's the end of the world if you say that, but you know like I really right.

Speaker 3:

You sort of I know you're really sad right now. Let's talk a little bit about like why you're sad, how we can, you know, work this, work this situation around. Like let's say they're having trouble with a friend, say, okay. Well, let's like sort of I understand you're really sad that so-and-so said they weren't going to be your friend anymore. Let's, let's think about why they said that. Realize that that's not what's going to happen. They're still your friend. It was something they said in the yes, quote, unquote heat of the moment and just talking through with your child, sort of what's going on In terms of boundary setting. I mean, I think that's a real big misconception. Is that setting boundaries is somehow bad for the attachment relationship when, in reality, like children are pushing right To sort of see like they want some boundaries that makes them feel safe and secure. Um, like somebody is taking care of them and recognizing like that's not safe to do.

Speaker 3:

Um, and they might not be happy about it in the moment, exactly, but they need it, but you really do need it and I think that goes like the whole, like developmental spectrum, right, you know, like I have a four-year-old and a 15-year-old and you know the boundaries are different, right, with both of them. But like my 15-year-olds and aunts will say, you know, thanks for not letting me do that, not in the moment, like not in the moment, not to go to that part. Yeah, like in the moment.

Speaker 2:

Right, that part, yes, like in the moment, like, oh right, I get it. And it's the same for a child. You know, I was talking to a parent this week actually, who said sometimes there's a moment and she has three kids and you're having fun, and then one child crosses the line or doesn't follow a rule or instruction that you said, right, like don't go in, that I don't know, don't jump in the mic, puddle whatever it is, and and they do it. And the parents said that they feel guilty because now, getting upset or setting that boundary, you're saying that's it, we're done. I asked you three times and now you didn't follow through. I need to follow through with this boundary. They felt that they were breaking the fun moment and so that parent in particular just kind of always went in the opposite direction.

Speaker 2:

Why set a boundary and and end this moment where we're all having fun? And I think there's, you know, part of what you're talking about in terms of being there with their child, with during, uncomfortable emotions and setting the clear boundary. Many of us didn't experience that. We didn't experience, you know, growing up, a parent sitting with us. It was with during. You know these uncomfortable emotions. It was get over it. Or one parent told me about like happy up, this was like just get past that moment and you're done, or there's nothing to be afraid of, stop being so nervous or worried about stuff. And then, in terms of boundaries, we struggle with setting boundaries because we weren't given that kind of freedom to set a boundary when we were young. So how much does a parent's childhood kind of play into this and their ability to be able to do this?

Speaker 3:

Oh, definitely, I think you know by default, right you go, especially when you're stressed, right you go back to like what you know. It's stressful when your child's upset, it's stressful when your child like breaking a boundary. So I think our natural inclination is to go back to how we were raised, right, because that's what we know. So, really, sort of, I think, being cognizant of the fact that, like you know, for better, I think research has sort of, you know, showing us that there are some benefits to these things, like setting boundaries and sitting with children in uncomfortable moments, that we just didn't have back then. And because we didn't have that research, back then the advice was not very different, but it was different, you know, than it is now. And just, you know, the little psychoanalyst in me Like that, that awareness is like so important because I mean, I notice it myself. I'm like, oh, it just it's fine, you know like, wait, no, that's not what we're doing, we're gonna sit here, we're gonna work through it, but it plays into it a lot and you're just.

Speaker 2:

you know, we're all human and we all have these moments. We don't expect any parent to be calm all the time. And can we just say that for one second? Because I think again. I think it's these like unrealistic expectations that we have of ourselves, where, you know, if you yell, then you have the guilt of, oh, I shouldn't have done that, did I impact the attachment, or I'm having a rough week or month or whatever it is, and I think that these expectations make it really hard for us, because then we have a moment that you and I have too, and then parents think that they've done something wrong. But to me, what you said, the most important part of this little section, was you seem to pause and reflect and go back. And's not too late. Once it happens, we can go back and repair totally, I was just thinking.

Speaker 3:

I was like repair, it's such a right part of the relationship. You know some of the you, sometimes you strengthen the relationship right even more through the repair after less than ideal interaction, which will happen, which will happen. And also, I think you know it's good for children to see that, like we all have these emotions right, because, like my little one, sometimes she gets so angry, she's poor and she's, you know, and I'm like sometimes I feel like that too, yeah, like you're not this perfect robot, you know that's like no you're not this perfect robot.

Speaker 2:

You know that's like no, you're not. We're not robots, and I think that's. I said this before, but I feel like the pendulum has swung a little bit too much towards this being calm, and that calm is the ultimate goal. It's not. It's. I mean, yes, we want to be regulated, but what's the difference? How would you describe the difference? Because I know that parents, who are listening, just feel like we need to be calm all the time, and that's suppressing emotion, which is also not good. And so what are we aiming for?

Speaker 3:

I think what you're saying is really like regulation. So understanding that you're going to feel, it's like it's perfectly fine to feel every emotion, it's good to feel every emotion. Sometimes how we express it can be less than ideal and work on Right. Yeah, and talking about that, so you know sort of when you have your moment when you're yelling at your kids and then later on say you know, I'm sorry I yelled, I was just really frustrated that whatever happened, um, you know, next time hopefully I won't yell, but this time I just I couldn't keep it in. So that they understand that you know sort of what regulation looks like and what maybe a little bit dysregulated looks like, and they can learn like the balance between them.

Speaker 2:

I get that. Yeah, that's we need to hear that. It's so important. Okay, so now I just want to touch a little bit on mental health, or stress and anxiety, because I know that many parents are struggling right now. Right Even in the US, the Surgeon General said that parental stress is a public health concern, and so I think it's something we need to keep bringing back into conversation, because it means that many parents that are listening to this feel that they might not fit within that.

Speaker 2:

I can regulate myself and regulate my emotions and feel that I can connect with my child and be responsive, when I'm struggling to do that with myself and my own needs. And so what can a parent do if they're in that situation where they're struggling so much and you even mentioned the stress part, right, when we're stressed, we're not reacting. We're not responding in the way that we should. We are reacting, and so if a parent is listening to this thing, that's great, but I'm really struggling right now. What can they do to nurture those their needs while keeping in mind their child's needs?

Speaker 3:

as well, and I think that's such a good question and I think something that was interesting that kind of came out of the Surgeon General's report too is this loneliness that a lot of parents are feeling and this real need for community among parents.

Speaker 3:

So I think the you know sort of at least for me, when I'm feeling sort of like down about parenting or life, my first instinct isn't to necessarily like seek out a community, but I think that that actually can be one of the most supportive.

Speaker 3:

Not necessarily like an Instagram, you know, like scroll, but like no, not that, no, not the same, but some sort of community, whether it be, you know, in person or virtual, where you're talking to other parents.

Speaker 3:

Because I think what can happen too is that you know we're, we're lonely, we're seeing all this stuff, that you know there's one way to raise a child and if you sort of mess that up, then your child's going to have these horrible consequences, right, and you're alone, you're, you're, you're when you're not with your children. You're seeing this on Instagram. Then you're with your children and it's just there's not no time to sort of reflect and talk to other parents, be like, yeah, I lose my temper too, like that's, that's what happens and really sort of being understanding of each other, I think can be helpful, of being understanding of each other I think can be helpful. So one trying to find a community or even just one or two other people right that you can talk to honestly about parenting and you know as much as you can. So I feel like I feel like the self-care thing has gone also a little bit like.

Speaker 2:

Oh yes, too far. Yeah, it's too much. It it's it's consumption and it's it's self-care is about like getting products, I don't know.

Speaker 3:

It's a lot, it's, it's very heavy, I find totally, and I feel like then people feel guilty that they're not doing like self-care, because that's right yeah yeah, why aren't you getting up at five o'clock and getting sunlight in your eyes?

Speaker 2:

And then that's another conversation. It's too much. I just feel that it creates a lot of pressure. You know you should be spending X amount of time on Sunday and prepping all your meals and there's a lot of pressure, I find, on the parent for one perfection and self-care being perfect as well. And it's not. It's a nebbing flow kind of thing. Even for myself, self-care might look like. Oh, my internal dialogue today is not great. I need to kind of reconnect with myself and have that warm coffee. I've been waiting for it's moments.

Speaker 3:

It's little moments Exactly, waiting for right Like it's moments, it's little moments Exactly, and I think some of that is finding those little moments can really help with your mental health overall and also feeling understanding it's okay to not feel great and that you can like sit with that and recognize that and then try to figure out those moments that are going to bring you a little bit more joy and relaxation. But I think being being comfortable with being uncomfortable is also important, because which is hard, it's so hard.

Speaker 3:

It's so hard, but I think otherwise it's hard to get out of that discomfort zone, right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's true, and that community that you said comes into that. Right Like you, can sit in that sort of emotion with somebody else that is just listening, not trying to fix the problem. We don't have to fix it right away. We also try to do that very quickly and sometimes that takes away from just sitting with it and coping with it and then moving on from it. I think we want to push it away, but we were raised that way. Our generation struggles with that. We don't. What does it mean to sit with an uncomfortable emotion? I don't want to feel it. I want to push it away somehow. Right, that's what we're used to doing.

Speaker 3:

Totally. I was just thinking that, like I think so much of it comes back to how how we, how we were raised and right now we're. We're focusing so much on like sitting with our children, which is great, and in these uncomfortable moments, but we haven't really focused a lot on like ourselves. So what we do in this right exactly so it's like this is all this pressure on us right to like, help our children with their emotions, regulate our emotions it's a lot.

Speaker 2:

it's a lot for the parent. I get that there are listeners that are dads and listeners that are single dads as well, and I want to be mindful of that, because we've been talking about the mother-child relationship. You mentioned dads at the beginning as well. Are there studies around that? I know that we in general look at the mother-child relationships, but what if somebody is listening to this saying one? Maybe there isn't a relationship with the mom and I'm alone in this? How can I buffer? Are there like immediate consequences? Or, you know, if they develop a secure attachment with me, is this buffering any of the other consequences?

Speaker 3:

if there are, totally so. I mean, the research is not as robust on dads, unfortunately, as moms, but the research that is out there it's the same. So you know, sense of responsivity, just secure attachment. Secure attachment in turn supports children's social-emotional development. That is all. It's the same pattern with father-child and mother-child attachment relationships. And then for children who there have been some studies on divorce and things like that, and definitely a secure father-child relationship can buffer a child from you know environmental stressors, the adversity or environment.

Speaker 2:

Right, I get that. Okay, I just needed to mention them, our conversation. But, moving towards that, you mentioned the parent, the teacher-child relationship, but what's interesting is there was one of your studies that I was reading and they talked about how it supports academics, like the academic performance. And so what have you found? Because I think this is interesting there was I believe it was in one of your studies that looked at classroom size, and here in Montreal last year there were teacher strikes that lasted quite a while because they're trying to reduce the classroom size among the other things that are causing higher rates of burnout in teachers, but classroom size is one of them. I need to bring this up because we are not talking about this enough, and what I understand is that there's an impact on how this will empower, influence the teacher-child relationship, because there are a lot of students in the classroom and then that, from what I understand, impacts their academic performance. Is this what you've been seeing it?

Speaker 3:

is so I mean, you know, I think sometimes I joke, I'm like sometimes I feel like my research just shows the obvious but sometimes they need the studies to say listen, look at this research, we need to change.

Speaker 2:

But so the research is there, but we're not seeing that translate into changing how classrooms are structured.

Speaker 3:

It's so upsetting because you know it totally makes sense, right, laura, it's harder to form a secure attachment Exactly when your teacher doesn't know you as well or when they're stressed and there's, you know, a lot of environmental sort of stressors around with. You know, just more children in the classroom, right. Right, which makes sense, which makes sense. But what we found was that you know, close teacher-child relationship. We kind of looked at conflict and closeness, you know, as sort of as a proxy for attachment in a way, and what we found was that close teacher-child relationships all the way through.

Speaker 3:

We looked through third grade and then started predicting later outcomes, predicted, you know, math achievement, reading achievement, cognitive in the earlier years, cognitive skills.

Speaker 3:

So you know again, like sort of saying, you know, research sort of shows obvious. But what we found was that sort of the mechanisms or the ways that through which the relationship impacted these outcomes were things like student engagement, right. So the students were more engaged when they had a close relationship with their teacher, they were more willing to participate. So, you know, you think about from an attachment lens, right, they feel secure with that teacher, they're willing to take a risk and answer a question, even if they're not sure they know the answer. So I think you know the class size thing is so important because it really does impact the relationship and the relationship we know matters all the way through, you know, especially in the early years, but in the later years as well. And having a strong relationship with your teacher in the early years can buffer the negative impacts of having a not so great relationship with a teacher in the later years. So, wow, it's important.

Speaker 2:

It's important. And then it comes back to how I started this whole conversation, which is the stress on the person, the adult, that's trying to build this relationship right. So, coming back to everything we just spoke about between the mom and child relationship, the same applies to the teacher-child relationship, in the sense that teachers are strenuous, they're burnt out, and now we're saying you need to build strong relationship with your child. Does that look so first? Does this look the same as what we described with the parent, meaning that there has to be some sensitivity and responsiveness towards the child, or is there more when it comes to a teacher?

Speaker 3:

So I think it's the same principles, right, the sensitivity and responsivity. But what's trickier, right, is finding, when you have 15 different personalities and 15 different you know, sort of ways of approaching the world in your room. It's figuring out, sort of like, especially for the shy child. So I've also done some research on temperament and teacher-child relationships, sort of figuring out how, based on temperament, to be sensitive and responsive. So you know, a shy child might need some support. It's like this is what's going to happen.

Speaker 3:

I'm going to call on you, you know, do you want to practice the response so that you know you don't feel anxious in the moment? Right Like it involves also helping a child navigate in the moment all these social interactions and that can be a little different than the parent-child relationship because it's one-on-one more. So it's really sort of figuring out, okay, how is this child comfortable in the social environment? How do I support them in the social environment? How to, you know, really provide them with the skills to interact with their peers, to participate in the classroom, and do it in a way that you know sort of supports them, based on their temperament. So there's a lot going on in both relationships, but I think in the teacher child, because you have 14 by the time she settles down the class and you know, there were about four or five children that she struggled with in terms of their behavior.

Speaker 2:

By the time she settled them down, there were about 10, 15 minutes left within that hour to teach what you needed to teach. And so I'm thinking of the pressure on that teacher saying, well, okay, now you have to settle down those kids and try to support them, because they need more help, and then the other kids are waiting to be taught something, and now don't forget to nurture the relationship that you have with them. It's a lot right and, like you said, these classrooms can be up to 25, 30 here, locally anyways. How can a parent, a teacher, how can a teacher that's hearing this, you know, how can we give them a little bit of a peace of mind? You know, in terms of I think you just gave a really good example. Are there more examples that can support them? And saying, like, how can I build strong relationships given the temperament? Like you said?

Speaker 3:

I think it is.

Speaker 3:

It's really, you know, tricky at the beginning of the year, especially to figure out sort of what each child needs.

Speaker 3:

Again, I kind of go back to that parent-teacher communication, caregiver-teacher communication as being so important, right? So if you can find out a little bit about your students and what makes them tick at home, and especially a child who might be having some trouble regulating in the classroom, find out what folks are doing at home to support the child in that regulation. Or, if it seems like there's not as much support as there could be at home in terms of regulating, talk to them, the caregiver, about what you're doing in the classroom and see if they'll do the same thing at home, so that there's some consistency and in the feedback that the child's getting, because that can be so confusing for children to write, as at school they have to yeah, yeah, um, yeah, I think really, yeah, getting to know um, students, and I think you know again, with all this, it's like the generalized pattern that you have, like even as a teacher, you're probably gonna lose your temper a little bit, or you know, yeah, right, and that's not gonna ruin the relationship.

Speaker 2:

Um, again, it comes back to this repair and um, and I think I have boundaries and having boundaries exactly exactly right I'm in your head, but it's true, because I do think that some teachers also feel the same way as a parent, in the sense that if I have too many boundaries, or these strict boundaries, I'm a strict teacher and so I might not be able to build that relationship. But I think, especially in early childhood, they are still looking for those boundaries and that's what's helping them feel safe in that environment.

Speaker 3:

Definitely. I always go back to even my daughter, one of my daughter's schools, the kindergarten teacher that everyone wants is very boundaries, like. She sets very clear boundaries and kids feel really safe in her classroom, I think because she has. She's warm and loving. But, like you know, you don't, you know, go to the bathroom without asking to, right, it's clear. The boundary isn't just there, right, it's there for a reason, and it's often a safety reason, which shows that you care, you know. So, having that discussion, Right, I get that.

Speaker 2:

That's really important too. That's the being clear right in terms of why it exists and why it's there. I love that. Now one little kind of question around SEL. You've mentioned social emotional skills and I just need to touch on the fact that you've highlighted the importance of consistency and having it both in the school and at home, because I did speak to an SEL consultant in the States two years ago where she said that they struggled a lot during the pandemic when they were trying to bring these SEL programs into the home. That parents weren't really were struggling, I guess, with applying this within their home, and I know that it could be a little bit more chaotic and there's a lot more and they feel like it's something extra that they have to do. But it's important and I just want to reiterate that in a different way that there needs to be some consistency both in the classroom and inside the home, because the home environment matters a lot when it comes to a child's SEL skills. From what I understand Definitely.

Speaker 3:

I mean, both home and school matter so much, and it's very especially for a young child. I think it's very confusing if you're kind of, you know told how to regulate, or you know showing how to regulate one way at school and a different way at home, and you know, you talk about your emotions at school and you work through them, but then at home you're told, oh, everything's fine, right, it just doesn't. And I think what the research shows too is that when you don't have some consistency between what goes on at school and what goes on at home, that the school-based programs aren't as effective. So that's something to think about.

Speaker 2:

Right, Got it. One last little question, because there was a study that talked about parental accommodation and I thought it was really interesting and something that we might not have heard about, and it said that the literature was linking parental anxiety, depression and stress to increase accommodation behaviors. What does that mean? I just want to bring that up because maybe we're doing that without realizing and I thought this was something interesting to bring up. What are these accommodation behaviors and is it that we're letting our kids do things and we're not setting the boundary?

Speaker 3:

Yes, I think. So I think it's that. I think it goes back to again how, how we were raised and the stress that we feel, um, you know, in the moments that you want to just, okay, you know what, so my child won't be upset, I'm just going to like accommodate so that they will not be upset, and then often that also leads to like neglecting maybe something that you need to do, so that you're coming to your child, like you know, maybe you need to go to the pharmacy and get something and but your child's having a complete, you know, meltdown or whatever and you're like you know what, I won't go, but you actually need something that you're not getting that's going to stress you out also. Actually need something that you're not getting that's going to stress you out also.

Speaker 2:

So I think, yes, that's that's really sort of the root of it is that this, um, you know, fear of having your child be uncomfortable okay and that we should be avoiding this as much as ideally avoid it, and but it is true that it just takes a lot more energy to support your child through that, and sometimes a parent just feels it's much easier to let it go. But then, if we're noticing, what I'm hoping by bringing this up is that parents start to notice. I wanted to bring this up for awareness, right, because if you are noticing that you do accommodate your child, very often it's going to be hard for them later on when there are no accommodations in the classroom, right, or in real life. Yes, yes, yes, yeah, exactly, and that's why I just felt the need to bring it.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to post the studies that I mentioned for everyone listening. They will be in the show notes, as always. A lot of people love to follow up on the research and your research is fantastic. I want to make sure I give you a moment to talk about Cooper, and we talked about community and the importance of that, as well as nested If, if you're okay, if it's okay to bring that up.

Speaker 3:

Oh, thank you. Well, cooper is sort of a community, a virtual community of parents that meets once a month, the same group of parents with a expert in child development to talk about a topic that is developmentally appropriate for their age group of children, as well as provides one-on-one sessions, if you want. I found a little bit surprising is there's a WhatsApp and that is actually one of the most sort of like you know like pillars of communities sort of in the group. But there's a WhatsApp that people are great about sort of chiming in and it's moderated by myself and then other psychologists. So you know, sort of that balance between just what product do you use for this versus you know sort of my style, right Tantrums, which would I do?

Speaker 2:

Do you have experts around sleep or support around that, because I know parents are questioning that.

Speaker 3:

We do. Sleep is so important for everyone.

Speaker 2:

Okay, thank you.

Speaker 3:

And then I just started Nested with my colleague, robin Newhouse, and our goal there is to do research, but not necessarily just within academia but outside of academia as well, to have a quote unquote bigger impact on some of these issues. So, like right now, we're doing a big study on parental mood and anxiety disorder and looking at, you know, sort of the root causes and sort of how to support parents through this very challenging time for many and it's, you know, very common. But really using research to hopefully inform policy and practice more.

Speaker 2:

I absolutely love that and that's how we connected originally. Both you and I really have the passion of sharing the science and making sure that more than three people read a science article that can have an impact on our society Exactly I just. There's so much out there and people and parents need to hear more about that research, so thank you for the work that you do. I will put the links to everything in the show notes so that people can access you and your work and social media as well. Thank you. Thank you, erin.

Speaker 3:

Oh, thank you. You know I'm a huge fan of your work too.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate the podcast, review it and share it with a friend. You can share it through social media accounts. You can click the link and share it in an email. Share it with your co-workers and teachers and parents at your school. Help us grow this podcast in any way possible and if you want to say hi to me, send me an email at info at kirstenoncom. I do give workshops in schools and in organizations, and if this is something that you are looking for in terms of talks focused on well-being for teachers in your school or employees at your workplace, specifically employees that are parents, then please reach out at info at kirstenroncom. By the way, I am giving out 20 free one-hour workshops and companies, and if you want to grab that for the end of the year or the beginning of 2025, you can email me again at info at CuriousNeuroncom, and I hope I see you inside our membership, the Reflective Parent Club. All the links are in the show notes. See you soon. Bye.