Curious Neuron

Understanding and Addressing Child Deception with Dr. Victoria Talwar

• Cindy Hovington, Ph.D. • Season 6 • Episode 27

Share episode

Send us a text

In this conversation, Cindy Hovington interviews Victoria Talwar about the topic of lying in children. They discuss the development of lying in children, the different types of lies, and the role of parents in teaching honesty. They also touch on the importance of modeling honesty and the impact of lies on trust. The conversation provides guidance for parents on how to handle lies and teach honesty to children of different ages. In this conversation, Victoria Talwar discusses the topic of children lying and provides insights on how parents can effectively address and understand this behavior. She emphasizes the importance of focusing on honesty rather than just discouraging lying. Talwar suggests using stories and examples to teach children about honesty and its positive consequences. She also advises parents to create a warm and supportive environment that encourages open communication and trust. Additionally, she highlights the significance of understanding the motivation behind a child's lie and seeking professional help if lying becomes persistent or problematic.

Takeaways

  • Children's ability to lie is a sign of cognitive development and understanding of different perspectives.
  • Young children's lies may not always be intentional and can be a result of wish fulfillment or acquiescence.
  • Parents play a crucial role in modeling honesty and should reflect on their own honesty habits.
  • Lies can impact trust, and it is important for parents to consider the consequences of their own lies.
  • Teaching honesty involves having conversations with children, setting clear expectations, and addressing both the lie and the transgression.
  • White lies can be a complex topic, and parents should consider the values they want to teach their children about honesty and kindness. Focus on teaching children about honesty rather than just discouraging lying.
  • Use stories and examples to illustrate the importance of honesty and its positive consequences.
  • Create a warm and supportive environment that encourages open communication and trust.
  • Understand the motivation behind a child's lie and address it accordingly.
  • Seek professional help if lying becomes persistent or problematic.


Join the waitlist for The Reflective Parent Club:
https:

Get your FREE 40-page well-being workbook:
https://tremendous-hustler-7333.ck.page/reflectiveparentstarterkit

Join our membership, The Reflective Parent Club to learn how to manage your emotions and model this for your child. Use code PODCAST 20 to get 20% off any membership and get 2 FREE WEEKS to try it out
https://curiousneuron.com/join-our-club/

Get 1:1 coaching
https://forms.gle/u8ENfn8CLbcMAZT36

Please leave a rating for our podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify! Email me at info@curiousneuron.com

Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/curious_neuron/

Facebook group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/theemotionallyawareparent/


THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS! Get some discounts using the links below
Thank you to our main supporters the Tanenbaum Open Science Institute at The Neuro and the McConnell Foundation.

Discounts for our community!

  1. Pok Pok app. Click on the link below to get 50% off an entire year of this amazing open-ended play app for kids! ...
Speaker 1:

Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the Curious Neuron podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host. Today we have a pretty interesting topic, something that I have never covered before, and I'm really excited to have one of the world experts on child deception from right here at McGill University and we had such an interesting conversation that focused around parts of her book as well in her research, obviously. Um, I had, uh, the opportunity to read her book and I just think that it's a book that we have to all have in our houses. We need this book in our homes because it just answers so many questions that parents have asked me before that I didn't have the answers to. And when we think of parenting books, sometimes we think of, you know, just the general emotions books, which are important, but the idea of teaching our children how to tell the truth and to be truthful and not to deceive us and not to lie. That's a pretty big topic and most of us don't know how to navigate things when our children, you know, lie to us or how to model certain things. I know it sounds easy, right to model honesty, but my conversation with her made me realize that there were a few things that I needed to change within my home, and I know that you're going to learn a lot from this conversation. So before I begin, as always, I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute for supporting the Curious Neuron podcast, as well as the McConnell Foundation. Without them, this podcast would not be possible, and without you, this podcast would not be possible, as well Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. It is really important to leave reviews and at least to rate it and to make sure that you are subscribed, because all of these metrics show that you care, and the bigger those numbers get, the better it is for the podcast.

Speaker 1:

On that note, there might be some changes happening this coming September with the podcast. I might be cutting it down to two episodes per month instead of four, so not weekly episodes and what we might do is switch some of these conversations to the new community that I'm building, called the Reflective Parent Club, and we are testing things out this summer. This episode, for instance, the video, will not be on YouTube. The video of my conversation with Dr Victoria Talwar will be on the platform of the Reflective Parent Club, and we are going to be bringing some of these conversations to the club because there's just a few changes that I need to make and they were not easy decisions because I just am really struggling with the idea of perhaps having to stop the podcast. It's a lot of work and yeah, so I'm not sure what's happening with the podcast, but I don't want to completely stop it, so I'm testing out cutting it down a little bit to see what the reaction is and what the response.

Speaker 1:

So, if you are somebody that does listen to the podcast, send me an email at info at kirstenrauncom. Say hi. I just want to know who you are and connect, and I am taking time to speak with 100 parents, people that listen to the podcast, people that follow on Instagram, people that are part of the newsletter. It doesn't matter where you are from. I want to speak with you because I want to see if there's something different than a podcast that might meet your needs. I want to know what you are struggling with when it comes to your well-being and your needs and how you can support yourself and, in the end, you do end up supporting your child. So it is important to have the right resources for you, and that matters to me.

Speaker 1:

And, on that note, if you are interested in learning more about the Reflective Parent Club, you could visit our website, kirstneroncom at the top. By the way, it's a new website, so have a look at it. And at the top now it says join the club. You will see all the information every single week. We have a live on Tuesdays at 12. And if you can't meet that, you can't join that one. There's another one at 8 pm Eastern time, and we let go of whatever is stuck on our minds. And it's not just about letting go and venting. Research shows that just venting is not is actually not a good thing for us. We need somebody to coach us and to support us, and that's why we are training parents to become these reflective partners for the person that they are listening to. So not only do you get to let it out, but you get to support somebody else, and that just feels so good and we guide you through that.

Speaker 1:

So there will be the conversations with experts, obviously clinicians and researchers and authors, as I do here, and there will also be the weekly calls with me, where we learn to let go of certain things, and there's a beautiful platform where you could learn from other parents and inspire other parents and be inspired by other parents. It's just really a comforting place. So far, with the small tests that we've been doing, it just feels good for me. I'm enjoying being part of it, so I hope that you will come join us. Come have a look and join the waitlist. Kirstneroncom. Click on the top banner to just at least put your name there, because there will only be one discount offered and that will be at the launch in September, so you don't want to miss it All right. So I don't want you to wait any longer, because this conversation is truly an interesting one.

Speaker 1:

Get your notebook out you might have to listen to this one twice or you can click on the link below and you can have access to Dr Talwar's book the Truth About Lying. I will put the link there for Amazon in Canada and the United States and, as I said, she is a professor at McGill University here in Montreal, in the Faculty of Education, and she is also the department chair, which she has been since 2020. I will put a few of Dr Talwar's papers in the show notes as well, because she does have seminal papers, these papers that all researchers refer to. She has just such important work and I was excited when she agreed to join me on the podcast, and so I hope you enjoy the conversation with Dr Victoria Talwar. Welcome back everyone and, as promised, I'm here with Victoria Talwar Welcome.

Speaker 2:

Oh, thank you, I'm so glad to be here.

Speaker 1:

I'm so glad to have this. I'm excited to have this conversation and I thoroughly enjoyed your book. I love the title first of all, the Truth About Lying and I posted a question box on Instagram to try to see if there were questions, and I did get a lot of questions, so we're going to try to keep it short and to the point, but I really invite everyone to click on the link in the show notes of this podcast to purchase your book, and I had some educators as well, and early childhood educators reach out saying that this was something that they needed for themselves as well, so I know they'll be listening to this podcast episode. So, before we do begin, I'd like to get to know you a little bit more. I shared your bio at the beginning, but how did you make your way into this area of research?

Speaker 2:

Well, I was really interested in actually children's cognitive development, and so I was quite interested in how they start to understand the world about them and start to understand how their own thoughts and beliefs are different from other people's thoughts and beliefs and start to be able to understand that different people have different perspectives and things like that.

Speaker 2:

And that kind of led me to looking at lie telling, because lie telling is an interesting in terms of cognitive ability. You have to understand that somebody to create to be successful in your lie. You're trying to create a false belief in someone. You're trying to make them believe something that isn't true, and to be able to do that, you just need to begin with need to understand that they, you can have knowledge that they don't have, um, and that you can have, uh, you can create um, their beliefs about the world and create a false belief in their mind, and that's actually a sophisticated a cognitive ability, and so I was interested. You know at what age children start to do this, and that's how I got interested in children's lie telling begin with, and then I realized there were actually wasn't that much scientific research on lie telling in general, and so that was the beginning of my area of research.

Speaker 1:

I love this and I think that's a good segue into the beginning of this conversation, where I feel that a lot of parents think that their two or three-year-old maybe three-year-old will say things like I didn't do it or I didn't take that, and we automatically get really upset about this because we see that as their first lie. When I was reading your book, I was sort of reminded that perhaps we're reacting a little bit too quickly and too harshly with those first lies and, like you just said, it is such a complicated process. So what are we seeing? Is that considered a lie when a very young child says, no, I didn't do that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know it's, it's so well. One good news for parents is is when they're young, children do start telling a lie, where you can tell that they're like intentionally trying to fib, it's a sign of their cognitive maturity. So that's a different mindset, that's right. So you can see like, okay, they're advancing in their understanding of the world. You might still want to teach them not to lie, but you can see it as it's an outcome of this very positive cognitive development. However, very young children's lies sometimes may not actually be intentional lies. So, for instance, I give an example. You know there was an example, for instance, a researcher back in the time who did some studies on kind of diaries of children's behavior, and Clara Sturge. She noted that her, for instance, daughter they were taking a walk up a hill and they were pointing out sites from the top of this hill to her three-year-old daughter and she noticed that you know they started to think, oh, is she really seeing what we're pointing out to her? So they pointed to in a direction to. They said, oh, see the castle. And there was no castle there. And the girl just said, yes, I see the castle and in that case just said, yes, I see the castle and in that case there wasn't. It's not. We called um, she called those pseudo lies and what that case?

Speaker 2:

The child is kind of almost giving an affirmation because they it's wish fulfillment, they want to see whatever you're pointing out to them and they're used to adults knowing more than them. So they're like they a castle. There must be a castle there. Yes, I see it, because I want to be part of what you're seeing too. I want to be, and you as the parent, you as the adult, know more than I do. So we have to be sometimes be careful of these sort of acquiescent types of statements that we might see as lies. But maybe the child isn't really intentionally trying to fool us in those early ages. But when you know when their child is like purposely, you know for sure denying something that you know that they know that they did, then that's more an example of where you see an intentional lie. Like you know, did you eat that cookie that they know they're not supposed to eat before dinner? And they say, no, I didn't eat that cookie. That's a much more intentional example of intentional lie.

Speaker 1:

Which takes again a lot more cognitive skills. So we should sort of be happy, maybe in line with what you just said. I, my children now are five, seven and nine, and when they were a little bit younger I noticed that some of their friends, or themselves as well, would come up with some sort of story. They would say, oh, I visited the river behind the house and there's absolutely no river behind her home. And they would have like these stories together. Is there a part of this? When they're young, that's just imagination and creativity, and we see it as you're not telling the truth, because I remember sometimes the parents of some of these kids would get really upset and say we haven't walked by a river today. Why are you saying that?

Speaker 2:

Yes, and that's we have to understand with very young children.

Speaker 2:

They it's part of their imaginary play, it's part of their pretend play to come up with all these things and they can sometimes confuse it in their narratives that they're telling you about the day.

Speaker 2:

So they can tell you you know, we went to the zoo, we did this, we did that, and it's kind of part of their imaginary play that they're kind of conflating and part of what they're doing.

Speaker 2:

And we need to understand that. That is a normal part of childhood, especially very young children or preschool children, because their imaginary play is a big part of their play and it's okay, you know a big part of their, of their play and it it's it's okay, you know, um, and if you're concerned about it, you can just say gently okay, oh, so that was. You know, if you, uh, that was part of your pretend play or that was a good imagination, that was lots of fun, you know. Just to distinguish for them that this was not real and this was real. But on the other hand, you don't need to worry about it too much that they're like intentionally telling you these elaborate stories, because they're often just doing as part of their imagery play, and as children get older, especially as they get to grade school, they start to distinguish between this and this becomes less part of their narrative that they come to tell you.

Speaker 1:

Right Part of what you mentioned in your book and something that I feel is across the board with parenting is it starts with us and what's happening in the home, and how do we model certain things. And that's what I understood as well is that we have to think about what we're modeling as well in terms of being dishonest and honest. Can you explain a little bit more in terms of? There was a parent who wrote in to me after she found out that I was going to speak with you and said that she had a very bad habit of telling white lies and that she was raised in a home where her own parents would often tell white lies, and so she got stuck in that habit, but now has a very young kid and she's worried that they're going to learn the same habits. How do we start with ourselves? Do we have to kind of reflect on what our honesty and dishonesty habits are?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think that mother's already caught on to something that's true, that we actually learn from our parents. So, as a result, we learn behaviors like honesty or when to lie or not to lie, often through what we've seen our parents do. So we have to think as parents in terms of lying and so many other behaviors we are modeling to our kids. So we have to think okay, what is important to us? And then I need to make sure that I'm sort of showing that to my child, because you know we can, words are great and we should use our words to explain, and so children can understand. But if we are then sort of undermining our words by doing something different, we're sort of teaching them actually. Well, this is the kind of the window dressing and this is what we actually do, you know. So I think, parents, honesty is an important one to think about. What we, what each one of us, finds important, because you know, are you going to teach them honesty is the best policy, but then you yourself will occasionally tell a lie for a certain reason. Well, then you have to think okay, what is it that you really believe? How do you show honesty? Are there times that you do lie and if so, what do you think about those times? Are you comfortable with the fact that you lie in those situations? And then are you?

Speaker 2:

Next question is are you comfortable for your children to lie in those types of situations? And are you comfortable then telling you those lies? Right, because research shows that parents who tell lies to their children their children, and especially not the occasional lie, but that is frequent enough that the children remember it in adulthood, because these are retrospective studies with sort of grown-up children. When they have that as a feature of their sort of relationship with their parents, they are less likely to feel close to their parents and they are more likely to lie to their parents on a regular kind of basis.

Speaker 2:

So you have to think about it. If you're not comfortable with your children lying in those situations, then think about why not, and then think about whether you want to demonstrate that behavior and also what is the message you want to give. So we need to think about these questions for ourselves and it's easier to think about them in advance, before we get to that situation, so that we can make sure that the messages we give with our children are congruent with what we believe and what our behavior is.

Speaker 1:

And I think of moments when you do find out that somebody lied to you, or even as a child, remembering a moment where my mother did lie to me and there were good reasons behind it. But you do think about like, didn't you trust me or didn't you want to tell me the truth? And then you think about the trust that you have with this person. What if something else is a lie?

Speaker 1:

I've had this conversation with parents because some of us had to. You know, our children don't want us to leave at night. So if you have a dinner with a friend, I had a friend who just had to lie every single time and tell her kids that you know they were going into the basement or going somewhere that was in the house, but daddy was going to put you to bed, but in the end they were leaving the home to come out for dinner and we would have this conversation back and forth because they felt that this was the only way for them to leave the home. But I always questioned, like what would happen if your kids did find out that you weren't in the house that night? That there's a a trust issue that gets um, that there's an impact on that yes, and that's really something we have to think about with our children.

Speaker 2:

if we're lying to them, right, it's about the trust and in fact when people lie to us we get upset because there's been a violation of trust. So if you discover your friend has lied to you, you suddenly feel a little bit differently about your relationship with your friend. If your child why parents often I have to counsel parents not to you know to realize the situation and keep it within you know perspective when their child first lies to them, even though it's a little lie, like you know, did you eat the cookie? Sometimes parents can get very upset and the reason is it's like my child is lying to me and they feel a violation of that trust.

Speaker 2:

I should you know, how can I believe that my child would lie to me? So we have to remember that we don't like to be lied to and it is often considered a violation of trust. So we need to think about that when we tell lies, because if children discover that they're being lied to such as you know mommy conceals, you know going out and sneaks out of the house that in the end, when they discover it, could do worse damage than having to more actively. So the harder problem is, you know, the most immediate harder problem is dealing with the. How do I get to go out and see my friends for a night out?

Speaker 2:

And sometimes lying is an easier option in the short term, but the long term it may not be. You know it means having conversations with children, maybe not always when you're just about to go out at other times, but children having to learn about their parents. Their parents are also people who have feelings and needs and that they have to learn that. It's important that our children learn to have consideration for us as well as them, and that also it's important that for young children who may still not be able to, they understand that you're not abandoning them. So as long as they feel that love and they're they're, they start to come and they may.

Speaker 2:

That doesn't mean that a child, you know, won't be upset when the first time or second time. But they become to realize that, oh, mommy does go away, she loves me regardless and she comes back and she still loves me and she comes back. It's the same with a child that goes to daycare. The first couple of times they go to daycare they're really upset and you, you know, you have a loving, strong relationship with the child. But there's still they have to get used to that separation anxiety, right, and it's hard to deal with. But you have to get through it and teach the child and the child starts to understand oh, mommy comes back and gets me, you know, and I'm still loved and we still have this really close bond. But yeah, it can be hard. I mean it's hard for every parent to go through that.

Speaker 1:

But there's a lot of learning that happens in those uncomfortable moments or unpleasant emotions for that child, which is important too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it's about helping them get through those, those and helping them deal with it, rather than sort of trying to avoid it. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I get that there's a white lie that I think many of us put on our children, but it's when you receive a gift and I know that this comes up in a lot of conversations as well because children are honest and they will let you know if they don't like something. But when you're, they're young, I think as parents, you feel embarrassed that they were honest about it and you feel bad for that person right, that grandparent or, you know, aunt or uncle. Is that a mistake, or are these little white lies okay to teach them?

Speaker 2:

Well, that's exactly the thing that a parent has to ask themselves, like you know, because then children get very young children will get confused about, like you know, is it okay or not to lie or not. Older children can start to understand the intentions behind a lie and if someone's trying to intend to do something that's good to you know, preserve someone else's feelings and they will see those lies. As you know, preserve someone else's feelings and they will see those lies as being, you know, not as bad, for instance. But for younger children they see things in a very, you know, black and white kind of way and they don't necessarily understand. But you have to think about you know what you want to teach your child, about honesty and about when it's okay to lie or not lie, and then make that you know, make sure your messages to that is clear, because some parents may teach their children that you know what to say. I have a funny story. A colleague had a three-year-old and they had to go to visit their grandmother for Christmas and it was like an hour's drive or something. And they get there and the child got something that the child didn't like and they opened it up and said I don't like it and they caused a lot of upset on Christmas day. So the next year they coached her on the way, saying you know, when grandma gives you a present you have to say you like it and thank her for it or whatever. And she got there, she opened it up and she kind of looked at it and then looked at her dad and in this big stage whisper said daddy, what do I do? I really like it. That's so good, but we have to think about like what it is and then the messages forward and I mean one way to deal with it. If you really want to teach your child to be honest and you don't want to teach them to tell those to tell, even like a polite we call I call those politeness lies is you know, teach them about, you know what you can role play with it. You know and say you know what. Why would you, what are, teach them to say a simple thank you, Thank you for giving them a gift, to show appreciation for receiving a gift, or there's something about the gift that they like.

Speaker 2:

I got a book once from somebody who I already had the book. I'd read it and I realized this person had really thought about what to get me and realized I'd really like this author and went and got me this book. And I was really touched by the gift because I realized they'd really thought about what would be like they just hadn't gotten something random. They 'd really thought about something that I would like and indeed it was a book I liked. And I said to them, I just said, but I also knew they didn't have a lot of money and they didn't have to get me a gift. To them, I just said, but I also knew they didn't have a lot of money and they didn't have to get me a gift. So it also reflected a bit of a sacrifice of them because they were not, they didn't have a lot of money. It was a time in their life but they'd wanted to get me something to express to them their gratitude to me.

Speaker 2:

It was very touching and so I didn't tell them oh, I've already read it. I just said thank you. I, um, um, I can't believe you. You know you've thought of me and that you know you realized that I would love this author, you know, and I was really touched by it and the gift really meant a lot to me, even though, um, I, uh, I had read the book. So the other book I gave away to a charity shop and I kept that book because that book represented it. It was more meaningful for me.

Speaker 2:

So you have to think of also, like gift giving is one of those things where there's more than just how you feel about the gift. There's also the perspective of the other gift giver, and so this can lead to some very interesting conversations with children about more than just the virtues of honesty, but also about generosity and thoughtfulness and why. You know why, thinking about the perspective and feelings of others and that may lead you to tell a polite lie because you realize the person's really being thoughtful and you don't want to make them feel upset, or it may lead you to find a way to speak in a you know what I say a tactful, kind way. You know not being blunt in your honesty like I've got this book, what a waste.

Speaker 1:

And it makes sense and I think those are beautiful skills to teach our child, because they will have these moments where they feel disappointed about something and we're teaching them that you don't have to lie about it, but there's a way to be kind about that moment as well. So, again, in that moment there's just so much that they're learning, rather than going to the easy route, trying to teach them to lie Right. Right, I get that we're going to go into the how to teach honesty, but I just have a few questions from parents and I just want maybe to offer parents a little bit of guidance. Like I said at the beginning, everything is in your book and I recommend that everybody reads this, but what would you offer in terms of a quick guide if you do catch your child in a lie, and would it be the same for a young child versus a teenager?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I do go. I expand on this a lot in the book and I give some examples in the book if people want to look at those. But you know, for as a general rule, you know, with older children you may be able to get into more discussion and generally you're going to get it. You can get into more nuanced discussion about intentions, consequences, et cetera, and feelings. But in the heat of the moment, with the lie, as a general rule, with all children, younger or older, you really want to stick to what has happened. So you want to A be calm about it. That's important. In that heat of the moment, we can feel, like we just said, it's a trust violation, so we can feel upset, we can feel angry, we can feel frustrated, we can feel all sorts of emotions. We need to be able to check our emotions and it may mean that you need to give yourself a timeout, so to speak, and just deal with it in a moment while you like, get yourself under control, because that's important, that we remain calm. And then you want to, like you know, label the fact that they've just told you something dishonest and also potentially talk about what the if it's something they've transgressed about. You want to talk about that and then come up with and that's why you want to have conversations about honesty at other times other than when you just catch them in the lie, because it's at those other times that you can have these wider conversations. And for young children those conversations may be more simple but for the older ones you can have much more longer, more in-depth type of conversations. But in that moment you can refer back to these conversations you've had and the principles and main ideas that you refer to that without getting into a long lecture. Because if you get into a long lecture you know it's going to get lost and certainly your teenager is going to roll their eyes at you and the little one's going to get confused because you're just talking, talking, talking. So you want to just refer to those and then get to sort of the outcome, the consequences of the lie and the transgression.

Speaker 2:

So you know, one thing we sometimes do when children lie is we just deal with the lie and we forget to deal with the transgression. So if they like lie to you about a small kid has lied to you about drawing on the wall, we just get all upset that they lied to us. But we also have to deal with the fact that they need to learn you do not draw on the wall. And what are the consequences of doing that? Well, now you have to help mommy. You have to go clean it up, right? So we we need to deal with both of us the same, like if a teenager lies to you about you know being a curfew time and we get all upset that they're lying to us and we get all broiled in that that, oh, wait, a minute, about the curfew breakage.

Speaker 1:

And you have to also deal with that, right? Yeah, that's such good advice and I know that parents listening are saying the calm part, that first step to what you just said, can be so hard, because it's it's also the fact that you feel like I parented you and I taught you not to lie and to be honest. And how could you do this? Whether they're young or older, I just mine are still young, but I know that in those moments sometimes it's so hard to stay calm because you just see it as a violation of so many things and you're disappointed in them and yourself. What did you do wrong? And you start to question everything.

Speaker 1:

One thing that was interesting from your book is I realized that we focus a lot on the lies, even by reading, and I realized that within our home we focus a lot on talking about not lying, but that we need to switch the conversation into what honesty looks like and why it's important. One of the examples that stood out to me was when you spoke about the books or the stories we talk about, and we've told all our three kids a story about the boy who cried wolf, and that's part of what I did, what I heard when I was young, and Pinocchio and all of that. But now I realize, because you mentioned a book I forget the name of it or a story that's focused on the honesty piece. So do you think that's where there's lots of room for change in homes, where we should be having or switching that conversation?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think we often focus about lying is bad, and that's okay. I think it's. We need to tell children, you know lying is bad, but we also need to talk about what is honesty. What is truth telling? What does it look like? How is one honest? So, for instance, in our research we found that actually the story.

Speaker 2:

So we had a story about George Washington who cuts down his cherry tree when he's a child and then he later gets asked about it by his dad and he ends up confessing and his father is not happy about the cherry tree being cut down but he's proud that his son told the truth. And that story we found and we told that to American children, but we also told it to children who weren't American, canadians, who had never heard that story, and we found that it was still powerful for both sets of children. Because the reason being was that and we've now tested it with like a non-George Washington story where we change the characters, it isn't George Washington, but it's the same principles, and the principles are the character's done something wrong, a transgression. They are asked about it and they choose to tell the truth about it and then there's a positive reaction to that. The world doesn't end when they tell the truth, because that's what children fear right.

Speaker 2:

They often fear the world is going to come to an end. Maybe if I lie I'll avoid the world coming to the end.

Speaker 2:

Mommy might not get angry and upset with me.

Speaker 2:

So I'll go for broke and I'll lie about it and maybe I'll escape all of that.

Speaker 2:

But they also fear that if they get caught in it like the world's going to come to the end, whereas telling the truth about a transgression seems really hard, right, because oh, mommy's going to be really angry with me.

Speaker 2:

But when they see these stories where they see the character tell the truth, one, it demonstrates to them how does one tell the truth about one's transgression. That's a hard thing to do, right, you have to be brave and you have to say none of us want to tell the truth, right, you have to be brave and you have to, like, say none of us want to tell the truth, but we've done something wrong, right. And so it demonstrates it, it models it for them. But it also shows them that, you know, maybe that is valued, right. The, the, the parent in the story, is glad that they told the truth, that they are. So that's also to see some positive outcome, that the world doesn't end when you actually tell the truth. And there are other stories like that too, where it shows how to be honest and that that honesty is valued and has some positive consequence to it, because our fears are often.

Speaker 1:

The reason we lie is often because we fear what the consequences are if we tell the truth, even as adults right, sometimes we lie to somebody because we don't want to hurt their feelings or we don't want, we don't get in trouble like a child will, but there will be some sort of consequence, whether it's at work or with a friend or a family member. So it's, it's kind of similar.

Speaker 2:

It is kind of similar and, as a result, though, as parents, we have to think about that, you know. That means that what that implication is and I explain this more in the book and I give some examples but it means also that you need to recognize honesty when your child is it? So if your child's drawn on the wall and they tell you truthfully it was them that drew on the wall, before you react to them drawing on the wall and getting all upset, take a moment to say I'm glad you told me the truth. I really appreciate that. You told me that you'd give them some credit and some recognition for when they are honest, even sometimes if they're telling you something you don't want to hear.

Speaker 2:

So I realized, I realized, thinking about this a lot, I realized I wanted to know when I bombed on cooking or baking, because I was like I don't want to have to like constantly make the thing that they don't like anymore. So I was like I don't care what it is, just give me the truth, give me the truth. And then I realized they were being polite and they were like well, it's not the worst and I'm like okay, on a scale of one to 10, what it is on a scale of one to ten what it is. Because I thought I actually, even though it's going to hurt me, I want to know the truth, to know I need to show. So I sort of set it up, I'm okay, and so even then they'd be polite. So finally I've learned. The question is, should I make it again? And usually that's when I they're like there's other stuff you could make.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I won't make that again but think I you know when I think of that as a quality, even now between my friends, the ones that are honest with me, polite and honest, but tell me the truth, those are the ones that I have a better or closer relationship with, because I know that if I'm doing something that's completely out of norm, that they're going to say Cindy, come back to this Like that's not you, or I don't like it when you say this, or you know.

Speaker 2:

No, that's sure it's not really for you. I know that they'll be honest, so it's such a good quality. We actually really value that in people. But you said something really important, and that's what we have to teach our children is how to speak in a kind but truthful way Right, Because I do know people that are truthful but don't have the kind aspect no, no, yeah, that we don't, we don't, we can't always handle that.

Speaker 1:

No, so I guess my next question was is about like how to teach honesty. But from what you've been saying in the past few minutes, it's really about how we're highlighting moments of honesty in ourselves, in our children, and highlighting the importance of honesty through stories for young kids or moments, as well, with older kids. Yeah, that's what I'm understanding.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you have to have conversations and it's not going to be one conversation, it's going to be conversations. But if honesty is something important to you, it's going to come up time and time again. I mean, you're going to be out and you're going to notice, like you know, someone is honest at the. You know they're paying for something and they get extra change and they honestly give it back. Comment upon that to your child. Notice, we notice a lot of the lies and the negative things in the world that happen in the news and everything around us, but also reflect upon those good things when you see them and sort of just narrate them to the child. Oh look, isn't that person being kind, or isn't that? Look how that person was honest. Because, so that they start to see that the world around them also people are exhibiting these positive behaviors, these virtues that we're teaching them and orient to them. And also you're going to talk to them about it. Sometimes they're going to be truthful, Sometimes they're going to lie, Sometimes you're going to have lies or truth.

Speaker 2:

You know, in the family situation you can talk about these, but also when you're not in those situations, having conversations about why is this important? Oh, somebody in the news was lying. You know why. Why are? Why are people upset about that? What? What is that implication, especially as children get older? You can have a quite in-depth conversations. When children are little, you're going to have much more simple conversations, but stories are a really great way to start having those conversations with the young children before I go to the last question, there was one question that came up from a parent and I thought that was kind of interesting.

Speaker 1:

So if, if your child lies to you, and I think their child's about eight years old, or seven or eight, do you pursue a confession? So if they're not, if you know that they've done something and they just don't want to say it and again it's probably with that age, it's probably because they don't want to get in trouble Do you just keep pushing for that confession from them?

Speaker 2:

Well, it depends on the situation. One thing I do say and I give examples in the book don't set them up to lie. So if you take the example of the kids scribbling on the wall, if you know that they've scribbled on the wall because you walked in the room and you saw the hand up and it went down, but you saw it and you know that they did it, don't say did you scribble on the wall? You know that already. Just deal with the scribbling on the wall. Why give yourself double trouble by now inviting them to potentially lie to you and then you have to deal with the scribbling on the wall and the lie. So just say you're scribbling on the wall and then deal with that.

Speaker 2:

So we have to be careful not to set kids up and then we actually create a situation that we then have to deal with. That makes it harder. So we have to be careful. If you actually know what they did like, if that child's late on curfew, you know what time did you get in last night. You know perfectly well what time they got in, you heard them, you were paying attention, you were awake. Why invite them to lie and deal with that? So I would be careful about creating situations.

Speaker 1:

We sometimes do that, I think we do it as like a test right. We want to see will my child be honest with me in this moment? But then in the end, from what I'm understanding is there's no point. You're just creating a more complicated situation.

Speaker 2:

You're creating a more complex situation and potentially getting really expanding the scope of what you have to deal with and you get even more upset. You're already upset because your child didn't do the curfew or your child scribbled on the wall. Just deal with that. The other one, in a way, is almost entrapment. You can think of it right, you know what actually happened there, so you don't need to test them on that. Just deal with what you have to deal with. So I think you have to be careful about pursuing them for the confession.

Speaker 2:

I would say that you know they a child might double down sometimes on that. If you are really starting to interrogate them and that you have to think about you have to deal with what the problem is and deal with that. And you also have to deal with anything that is where they're not safe. You know, if you're dealing with anything where there's potential harm harm to the child, harm to others you need to deal with that immediately and that's your greatest concern. But you also have to think about your relationship with your child and maintaining a positive, strong relationship and maintaining a positive, strong relationship and it could be that if you get into a situation which is interrogative and negative. You might get into a negative spiral and it might be. You know, just take a break on that. It may not really suit your long-term goals in terms of building up a strong relationship with your child where you're actually developing, you know, a relationship where there's more open communication with them. So I would be careful about if you find that they're not getting into an interrogation with them.

Speaker 1:

Right. I think that's really good advice. I think we do get stuck sometimes in that and I feel that, thinking back again to my childhood, when you're stuck in that cycle of interrogation, I feel like you lie because you just want to get out of it. You're like, yep, yeah, sure I did that or I didn't. I just remember those moments of being interrogated as a child sometimes and it's difficult, it's, it's consuming.

Speaker 2:

Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I get that. One person reached out and said that they work with children who have some level of trauma and some challenges and they were curious to know when is it a red flag or when is it a warning sign? When is lying considered a red flag for something? Would you have advice to somebody who's listening saying well, you know, my child has been lying quite a bit lately? And just before we answer that, there's a part of your book as well where you talk about the parenting style I think that's something we don't think about very often and how that parenting style can increase the likelihood of a child lying, from what I understood. So maybe we can quickly touch on that. But what I really want to get into is when is this a sign of something else the lying aspect, but what I really want to get into is when is this a sign of something else?

Speaker 2:

the lying aspect. Well, I think this brings up three important things to consider. One thing that I haven't spoken of yet and yet it's a whole chapter in my book, and then I'm constantly referring back to it and a really key, important part in terms of all of what we talked about is the motivation. What is the motivation for the children to lie? Is the motivation? What is the motivation for the children to lie? Sometimes their motivation is because they're scared of something, like one example I give in the book where child was lying about eating lunch. They told their mom they were eating their lunch and the mom discovered they weren't having any lunch because the teacher reported it that the kid was tired or whatever. Kid wasn't eating the lunch. And upon further investigation, the child was being bullied and their lunch was being taken from them. But they were lying about it because they felt shame and they were scared about repercussions of the bully and things like that. So that's a case where there's harm being done to the child but the child's concealing that out of fear.

Speaker 2:

There are other motivations that may be relevant to how you deal with the lie. So you really do need to look at what's behind the lie. What's the motivated? How is the child perceiving what's happening? And this is also relevant in children who have suffered trauma. They have suffered significant trauma in their lives. One of the reasons that we sometimes conceal information or lie is because we're scared out of fear or self-protection. So in these cases, if children who are trauma-informed, if we're dealing with them, we need to think about what is the motivation, what has their previous experience told them about how the world reacts to them or reacts to certain things, why they may be telling lies, because that may help us deal with that lie in a better way. That gets at the root cause of why they're lying.

Speaker 2:

And this also gets to the point that you were making about parenting styles. When us as parents, as educators or anyone in a caregiving role with a child or a youth, we have to think about how we interact in a way that's very warm and supportive, but also firm. There are certain rules. We expect children to abide by the rules, but we communicate those rules in a very clear way to them and we have a warm relationship where we really work on the bond in that relationship. This has longer term impact on children.

Speaker 2:

It doesn't mean that children won't tell necessarily a lie or fib occasionally, but in the longer term it has better outcomes in terms of they're more likely to feel that sense of trust with you and that you'll nurture that relationship, and that they're more likely to be open and tell you.

Speaker 2:

And this becomes really critical.

Speaker 2:

We laugh about the child eating the cookie that they're not supposed to eat or scribbling on the walls, but there are times where you really want your child to come and tell you because something's happening that you need to know about, that's putting the child in potential harm's way or someone's hurting the child, or they're engaging in something that's really of concern or they're with peers that are engaging in risky business and you want them to feel that they can come to you and that they can tell you. Them to feel that they can come to you and that they can tell you. And you want to have a relationship where they feel they can tell you stuff, even stuff they know that's not going to make you happy and you might be upset with, but they know that you'll be able to listen and hear them and hear their fears and how they feel and that you will create space where you will listen to them, and that's important for them to know, because then they're more likely to tell you the stuff that you really do want to know.

Speaker 1:

That's really crucial for you to know, and I think what we need to highlight is you mentioned limits and boundaries still exist, because I know a lot of parents struggle with that these days in terms of like setting those limits and those boundaries but you're still putting them, you're still having these in your home, but you're showing them that worth, that warmth piece, like you said, and that's truly key to to parenting.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, they have to feel that Um so what? What um can lead to more lying is when we're very punitive. So, as research has shown that in environments that are very punitive, where you're going to get in, you get into a lot of trouble. Even for minor offenses it can be harsh punitive kind of environments, it actually promotes lying because in those environments lying is actually an adaptive sort of strategy to manage survival in those environments. So you lie because you're going to get into a lot of trouble, no matter what you lie to try and mitigate those negative impact on you. But in environments which are warm and supportive, lying becomes actually more a detractor of that relationship.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for everything that you shared today. I don't know if there's anything else you'd like to add to this, but I think we covered in little, bite-sized pieces everything that you had in your book, and I know there's a lot more there, so, once again, the link is in the show notes. Is there anything else, a website or something you'd like to share with everyone, to reach out to you or learn more from you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah well, just check out the book. They can get it on Amazon or at the bookstore. Canada and the US Yep in Canada and the US, and there's lots of examples and examples of how to have conversations, examples how to deal with certain we didn't talk about it, but also secret keeping and tattling are also things that we have to deal with as parents and how we deal with that, and also information about what to do if you feel that your child's lying is problematic. You know to seek help on that.

Speaker 1:

Is there just a quick info for that? When should a parent maybe speak to? Who? Would you speak to your doctor about it? Reach out to a therapist.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so you can go to a pediatrician or a therapist or ask at your school the school psychologist or counselor for referral, and you should do it whenever you see that it's a persistent behavior that has lasted for a while, that is affecting the relationship either your relationship with them or other relationships, or is related to other sort of negative behaviors, and it needs to be like for a period of time, like six months or more a year, that you've seen that. Or if a parent is really having struggling dealing with this problem, then they should get advice and get help, because there's lots of help out there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it's OK to ask for help too and support. I think that's important for parents to know. Thank you again. Everything that we mentioned, all the links, will be in the show notes. The book and the child's books will put some links in the show notes as well. Thank you, Victoria. I really appreciated our conversation.

Speaker 2:

Oh, thank you.