Curious Neuron

The Power of Connection and Community for Dads with Chris Rodack

• Cindy Hovington, Ph.D. • Season 6 • Episode 25

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In this conversation, Chris discusses his personal journey of transformation and how he helps dads improve their lives. He shares his experience of going through phases of discipline and inconsistency, and how he reached a point of dissatisfaction that motivated him to make a change. Chris emphasizes the importance of connection and the power of a supportive community in helping dads overcome their struggles. He also addresses the challenges that arise in relationships when one partner is working on self-improvement while the other is not, and the need for open and effective communication in these situations. The conversation explores the importance of commitment in relationships and the impact of mental health on fathers. It emphasizes the need for self-care and personal growth, as well as breaking cycles of negative behavior. The role of community and support in improving mental well-being is highlighted.

Takeaways

  • Personal transformation requires discipline and consistency.
  • Connection and support from a community are crucial for overcoming struggles.
  • Open and effective communication is essential in relationships.
  • Friction and discomfort can lead to growth and positive change. Commitment in relationships requires saying yes or no forever, rather than questioning compatibility during arguments.
  • Focusing on discipline and physical well-being can lead to better overall well-being.
  • Self-care involves internal work and dialogue, not just external activities like going to the spa.
  • Breaking cycles of negative behavior requires self-reflection, journaling, therapy, and support from others.
  • Building a community of like-minded individuals can provide accountability and help in personal growth.

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Speaker 1:

Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the Curious Neuron podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host. For the past few weeks, I've been talking about the importance of connection and community, and I'd like to continue that conversation today. However, for today's conversation, I'd like to focus on dads and what they need in order to have a safe and engaged community. Before I begin, I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute as well as the McConnell Foundation for supporting the Curious Neuron podcast. Without them, it would not be possible and, as I always say, without you this would not be possible. So please take a moment to review the podcast, to rate it and to subscribe to it, because that shows the algorithm that you care and that helps support the podcast with the metrics and the funding that we get to continue the podcast.

Speaker 1:

So I came across Chris's Instagram account a little while back maybe almost a year ago at this point and what I really enjoyed was how he was connecting with his audience and how he spoke about this community, with the things that he was doing in terms of keeping them accountable for certain things and motivating them. So I interviewed Chris because I wanted to know what are dads looking for and what do they need in this community and how important is it for them? What are the changes that he's seeing? And so, whether you are a dad or you have been trying to support your partner, your husband, in this maybe difficult situation that they're going through. I think this is an important conversation because Chris shares what he has seen the past year with this community that he's growing and building, as well as some of the personal stories of the dads that are part of this community, so I think there's a lot of important information in this podcast episode. Please enjoy my conversation with Chris Rodak. Hello, chris, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, glad to have you.

Speaker 1:

I mean sorry.

Speaker 2:

No happy Glad for you to have me. I had you earlier.

Speaker 1:

Exactly.

Speaker 2:

I just got done doing jujitsu in my garage with a guy, so I'm like's all messed up but yeah happy to be happy to be here at a great time, the first time excited to be here well, that's what I was going to say anyway, so you just introduced that.

Speaker 1:

You know, I was on your podcast and I really enjoyed our conversation, so I thought it'd be nice to have a similar conversation, but on this side, or not similar. This time we're going to turn the tables and talk about dads, and I think that you are a great person to do that. So how about we begin with? Who was Chris before? The Chris that I see online? Who's changing dad's lives?

Speaker 2:

At times the same Chris and at times a different Chris. I went through various phases, like many guys do. I always share my story because I know guys can relate to it. I grew up in a big family and I fell in love with music, went to college, got obsessed with the saxophone, gained weight because I practiced saxophone all the time and I went to college for music, became a music teacher, lived by myself for a year and got crazy, ripped and in shape and disciplined. And then I got married, had kids and let it all go, with excuses of I didn't have time to take care of myself and I got undisciplined. So I gained a lot of weight and through that process of losing this thing that I held so dear, which is my discipline, a lot of things changed in my life and I lost kind of a lot of the hopes and the dreams and my attitude changed, my identity changed and through that process I became motivated, unmotivated.

Speaker 2:

Motivated, unmotivated to get myself back into the shape I used to be in and to be the person that I wanted, that I thought I could be. And that was a 10-year process. That was some months getting in shape and getting disciplined, other months not. I tried to start businesses in that time but, like I said, I lost my discipline for my physical body. So that transferred to everything I did, it transferred to my business, it transferred to everything. So I was a very up and down person. I wanted to be in shape. I didn't think I was that out of shape, but now that I look back at those pictures I say, man, you were not the guy you thought you were, and so I would say was a more emotional, undisciplined, sloppier version of myself, but at times also disciplined when I was motivated.

Speaker 1:

But inconsistent is a good word well, I think that word is exactly what I wanted to focus on for a second, because I think many of us moms and dads struggle with that inconsistency, right like we want to be better at something, whether it's you're, you know, being physically fit. Or some people come to me and say I'm trying to journal, but I can, and I get in and out of this habit and I, you know, or morning routine of some sort, and I think that we fall into that, and then we're hard on ourselves when we fall out of that routine that we are trying to do, did you? Um, so what, what? What changed for you in terms of getting back to that discipline that you wanted to achieve?

Speaker 2:

wife whose husband paid for everything her entire life. And then one time she asked if she could buy something and then he said for what? And then she said it's never going to happen again. And then so she went up, started the business, became wealthy herself. So she said never again am I going to ask anyone for money. I got to the point where I said never again. That's the Jim Rohn story.

Speaker 2:

So for me, I saw a picture of my son. He was happy, a beautiful wife. I had the job I wanted at the time house, car. We were on vacations, everything was going right in my life. I had no reason to be unhappy. But I looked at this picture of myself and I was unhappy. Why was I unhappy? And I did not want for the rest of my life to be an unhappy, miserable dad, and that was because I allowed myself to kind of rot and decay a little bit. I let myself go so badly that I didn't like who I was. So I, honestly, was looking at this picture and saying there's no reason I should be miserable with everything that I have going for me. I need to make a change.

Speaker 2:

You call it a rock bottom moment or whatever it was, but it was also over a course of years and I started joining jujitsu. After that I started learning more about my health and then it's been a year's process. The dads that you speak with online and that you connect with are they experiencing that similar moment, that rock bottom moment that you call, or that moment of realization be on the brink of divorce? Maybe they just got in a fight with their kids for the hundredth time and they say I don't want this to be the way it is. Maybe they have a health scare. Or maybe, for the 50th time in a row, they got motivated to work out and then they lied to themselves once again and they just say man, this can be my life for the next five to 10 years.

Speaker 2:

And in the content I post, I try to bring these perspectives to the forefront, because the reason I was stuck for so long is because I continually lied to myself. A lot of it was mindset and psychology. I kept on telling myself I was better than I was. I kept on telling myself tomorrow was going to be the day I was going to do something, and then five years would pass. But I kept on believing these lies, and that's hard whenever you're the person who continually lies to yourself because you're stuck in your own fog and your own brain. So I try to break through that a little bit with some of the guys I'm speaking to and say listen, you might be lying to yourself right. If you're like I was, you might be lying to yourself right now. You might be worse off than you think you are. You're not going to go to the gym tomorrow and look back at your past five, 10 years. Have you been breaking promises? Okay, yes, all right, we need to change something.

Speaker 1:

Right. The past couple of days I've been really focusing on talking about connection and I feel that a lot of people have been responding to that, saying I don't feel connected to myself, I don't feel connected to my partner. Um, actually that was the biggest in the poll, that was the highest percentage. It was over 40%. You know, when I'm thinking about the community that you're building, I'm assuming that connection piece to somebody else who's going through the same thing is very motivating for the fathers that you're working with.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's massive. It's maybe the most powerful part of what we do. You know I coach some people one-on-one, but if you're joining our Men of Fire program, the most powerful thing that we do is the brotherhood. We've got 100 guys in there now. We have 11 different countries, guys from all over the world. But why that's important is because a lot of times we think we're the only ones struggling with what we're struggling with.

Speaker 2:

In reality, there's millions of other people struggling with the exact same thing. They're either before you are on your journey right now, they're exactly where you are going through the exact same things, or they've solved it in some way. So whenever you share your struggles and stories about the things that you are suffering from, you immediately connect with other guys and they say hey, wow, I'm not alone in this struggle. I'm going through the same thing and maybe I was struggling with this last year and I can show you a path that I took to get out of that. And anytime someone joins my group, they have to film a discussion or an intro video, put it in our discussion group and say these are the things I'm struggling with, these are the things I need help with. And that is our first connection point to every guy in the group because through our shared suffering and struggles, like yeah, we're all going through the same stuff and then they can reach out and really connect with each other.

Speaker 1:

I'm assuming that video can be hard for some people, right? Because if you haven't really spoken about what you're going through and now you're in front of people that you don't know and you have to be vulnerable and talk about what you're struggling with, what do you see in terms of do they open up right away and just feel like this relief of this is my space to do this 95% of them, yes, but also for 50% of them that's the first time they've ever done anything like that in their life.

Speaker 2:

Because a lot of guys isolate. Many men feel like they have to do things on their own or with their own group of friends. I know my group of friends around here. We don't talk about these things and yet here they are, with me and guys around the world sharing these deep personal problems. So it can be uncomfortable for them. So it's kind of like an initiation. It's kind of like I'm setting the tone for what the group is like and what I expect and what the culture is, and it's yes, you will share and be open in here and yes, you will share and be open in here and yes, you will support.

Speaker 2:

The culture in the group is the most important thing. It's inspirational, it's supportive, no judgment, no criticism. It's a safe place for people to do these kinds of things. And yeah, it is hard for some guys at first, but also that's their breakthrough moment, because some of them share things that they've been holding on to for 10 years and they're one day into the group and they're like man, I haven't talked about that. And then, once they lay it out there, then we can start to work on it.

Speaker 1:

Right, you mentioned that 50% that had never done this before, never really opened up in terms of what's going on and what they're struggling with.

Speaker 1:

But these they'll have partners, right, they'll have wives and they'll have partners, and so I think that's an important point for us to talk about, because, you know, my community has always been about like sharing this with moms and dads. I'm sharing the science and I've always been very mindful of not focusing just on the moms. However, there are more moms, um, but the people that do reach out to me from the podcast are dads that are listening and trying to learn from the science and applying this to their lives. And the dads that reach out to me, many of them struggle with the relationship their relationship with their partner and they can't be themselves. They can't really open up about their mental health struggles, or they have a partner who's struggling with her mental health and they are taking over everything and not asking for help. So I've seen a lot of that and I imagine those are the people that haven't really shared with their partners those are the people that haven't really shared with their partners.

Speaker 2:

that's just tale as old as time. That's. It happens constantly and you go through different states. The husband will be trying to improve himself and work on himself and that changes the relationship and the dynamic between the two. Then the wife will do the same thing. Then the husband will feel offended that he's. There's a lot of like mixed signals and it all comes down to communication with each other. And here's a typical scenario A guy will join my group and him and his wife have been living a certain way for 10 years, you know, eating pizza, ice cream, movies, netflix every night.

Speaker 2:

So they get to this point in their life where they feel undisciplined, a little sloppy, and they're 35, 40 years old and they say, man, if I continue this for the next 10 years and I'm 50, things aren't going to look too good. So the husband will join us. Three months will go by, he's in the best shape of his life, he's disciplined, he has morning routines, he's getting up at 4.35 AM, he's doing all this stuff and the wife is saying, well, what's going on here? For the past 10 years we've done a certain thing, like Friday's pizza night. Years we've done a certain thing like friday's pizza night, saturday's ice cream, sunday day, sunday's movie day and now the husband is has a different life and what that can happen to some people is that creates some friction some needed friction in their relationship, where they say, you know, one person whether it's the husband or wife, doesn't matter says, well, do you think you're better than me?

Speaker 2:

Or they say, well, are you trying to get scared because they think the person's trying to leave them. They say, well, you're trying to improve yourself. Why aren't you bringing me along? And what it does is it kind of forces a mirror on the other partner and says, well, if I'm doing this, you could be doing this too, and maybe we both should change or not change. It forces a well-needed conversation and confrontation that could improve the marriage or it could reveal some cracks Also. Sometimes this happens and then the wife or husband decides to get their act together too and they end up supporting each other and fueling each other's fires and pushing each other. But either way, it's well-needed friction because it causes conversations that have been pushed down for years to come to the surface.

Speaker 1:

Right, and what I think of when you talk about this are the couple's sort of communication skills, conflict resolution and emotional intelligence, where you can feel a certain way, express that you know and share that, and that's something many of us struggle with in our relationship. So I think what you said that word, that term needed friction. I think that's brilliant because I think that we do need some of that to kind of I don't know what's the word like reset right? Is that a? I don't worry, I'm. Next week is my 15 year anniversary and you know my husband and I kind of like talk about that a few every five ish years, like what do?

Speaker 1:

we need to reset, what do we need to work on, what do we need to change? And I think that's part of a healthy relationship, where you look at that together because you hope, you want to hope that you're on the same path. But so many couples are struggling with this. I know because I've been talking about divorce a lot lately, because people are reaching out to me and asking for help.

Speaker 2:

A needed friction is like going to the gym and adding weights to your bar no-transcript someone, a fight even. You're trying to relay a point. It's how you do it. Can you relay a message that's important to you that you know the other person's going to disagree with, while still being warm, loving, strong, confident and not backing down? Can you do that? Can you do that and just not say yes to the other person because you're afraid of confrontation, while still being strong and confident and holding your identity, without going into the male patronizing? I'm right, you're wrong attitude, because if you do that, no one wins. So it's how to communicate is like the tone, the tone of your voice, the tone of your eyes, the tone of your face. All these things are extremely, extremely important.

Speaker 1:

Right that nonverbal is louder than the verbal sometimes.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yeah, absolutely. Guys talk about that. They say well, chris, I did this on a call. They'll say I did what you said to do yesterday and it didn't work. My wife got mad at me. I said well, tell me exactly how you said it Like. Well, I said you should have put the yeah, listen to yourself. You sound like a jerk. You need to watch the movie of your life. How do you sound? How are you coming off? Can you say the things and still inspire the person? That's what we're going for.

Speaker 1:

That's so good. Sometimes moms reach out to me and they are struggling with their partner who's stepping back, who's there but not present, who is a great father, but again not fully connected and very disengaged, but not again not fully connected and very disengaged. From my perspective, I always question how are they doing right, like, how's their mental health, and is there a conversation that needs to be had? That will be uncomfortable, but sometimes it doesn't go well. Sometimes these women are shut down and they're told that they're fine, the husbands are fine and there's nothing to talk about. They're not going out with friends, they're not connecting with anybody, they're staying home. I see this very often. What would you say to perhaps the wife or the husband that's listening if there's this sort of barrier, I guess, to having this conversation?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm not a scientist, I'm not not a doctor, I'm not a therapist. I help guys that went through what I went through, right. So that's where I can I feel comfortable helping, like if you can relate to my story, I can help you. Only so, when I felt like that because I did um, it was 100 caused from me being upset with who I was. That's what it was.

Speaker 2:

A lot of guys describe this term of feeling like you're living in a fog. You haven't smiled in a while, you haven't laughed in a while, you haven't felt real joy. You remember yourself feeling real emotions, but you haven't felt anything for a long time. I remember feeling like that. I remember journaling about it and a lot of that comes from a consistent frustration with your life. It's day after day looking at yourself being frustrated with your progress and your fitness and your marriage and your parenting and your business. Just in life, just in this frustration builds and every day you don't do something about it, you close yourself off and you kind of build this cage around yourself. So then you don't want to communicate to everyone.

Speaker 2:

I remember feeling upset and frustrated, my wife trying to talk to me about it and me just like I'm fine and just going away. I was closed off and I was taking my inner frustration out on her when she was the one who cared about me and she wanted to help me. So from my perspective, I would say that if you're a wife and your husband is like that, he needs help. He's. He's suffering right now. He's probably very frustrated and unhappy with the state of his life, and I have wives reach out to me all the time. More and more, every single day, wives say like I'm filling out an application for my husband or I was going to ask about that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

All the time? No-transcript. I want us to be really happy together in the future. I want you to be happy. I'm having this conversation with you because I feel like you might not be happy and I want you to be really happy and just on fire and confident. Do you feel like you are right now? He'll probably say no, okay, well, what's missing right now? Like talk to him, ask him questions, let him tell you what you know he's already going to say, and then you could say, all right, well, we can. You just told me you're not feeling good. You just told me you're in a bad spot right now. When were you feeling great? You know, do your own sales call Like okay, back whenever you know I was working out, I was on a football team, blah blah. I had guys around me. I just felt really good. Okay, well, do you need something like that in your life right now? And just ask him simple questions that cause him to just dig his own stuff up.

Speaker 1:

But if you come at it in the wrong way if you come at it patronizing. You need this, this is what's wrong with you would be having with your partner. They might say something that's uncomfortable for you. Again, thinking about the emails I've been receiving and the number of emails that relate to a marriage that's struggling, I'm assuming you know a partner could say a man could say well, this relationship is not going well, I'm not happy in my marriage, and that would be uncomfortable, but again, it's that needed friction. Perhaps that needs to happen and let's see what we could do about this right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and guys talk to me about this as well, and I take it to the next level and I say well, do you want to get a divorce?

Speaker 1:

Just make the decision right now Take it to the end.

Speaker 2:

So you had an argument with your wife. You're offended, you're hurt right now, right, okay, do you want to get a divorce? No, okay, then put that out of your mind.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Stop dipping one toe in.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because guys will have that in the back of their mind Well, maybe we're not meant for each other as soon as they have an argument, and then, when things are going well, they say I'll love you forever. It's like, no, you need to say yes or no forever. And it doesn't matter what situation you're in, it doesn't matter what is happening, what argument. Either you're the guy who gets divorced or you're not. If you're not, that means every argument you get into, every confrontation. You no longer will take that easy way out of saying, well, maybe we're not meant for each other and then you don't say the hard needed truth that needs to be said. Because if you think maybe we're not meant for each other, you will always slip out the back end and you're never going to say the hard thing that takes guts to say to your wife You're all in or you're all out.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's such good advice. What do you see with dads in terms of yeah, that's such good advice. What do you see with dads in terms of? Do they talk about their mental health and not, not mental illness? But this is I'll explain. So I've been doing a bit of research, talking to parents, and I find that you don't have to have a diagnosis of a mental illness to not be well. Sometimes we're not well, we're struggling, which is what we've been talking about, but there's an insight, right. So once they join you, focus on the discipline and physical that we've been talking about a little bit, but to me, focusing on that would lead to better well-being. So that's what I mean by you know, do they speak about feeling happier in other parts of their lives or just feeling better once they started this discipline?

Speaker 2:

Yes, absolutely, and it's immediate. It's not something that needs to take a long time and if you're listening to this and you're struggling, you're in a down spot. You can feel better one minute from now. You can reflect that externally in your physical body if you maintain discipline over time and you do the consistent, boring work like going to the gym and eating healthy. And you can do that over time. But if you want to feel good right now, just walk upstairs, put your face in a bowl of freezing ice water and say, wow, I did something that feels good. That was hard for me. I scared myself a little bit, I pushed myself. I guarantee one minute from now you're going to feel an ounce of pain and then you're going to feel really good about yourself.

Speaker 2:

Guys feel good when they are growing and progressing in life. If you are not moving towards a goal and you are stagnant, I don't care if you have a billion dollars in the bank. If you are stagnant, you're going to feel miserable. And there's many men out there who have very successful businesses, who are making tons of money, but they're still so unhappy because their marriage is failing, they have no connection with their kids, they're personally, they've allowed themselves to rot away. And they've got this business on autopilot. That's bringing in money. And they say, well, isn't this what I'm supposed to do? I'm supposed to provide? It's like no, you've created a transactional relationship in every area of your life. You're just an ATM now.

Speaker 2:

You have no personal fulfillment and purpose in life anymore. So once they get these disciplines and routines in life yeah, a simple thing like having a nice routine in the morning and working out and being healthy and actually thinking man I can become something more personally and working towards it. That will fill you with everything you need and you can immediately feel better. It's by promising yourself that you it's doing the hard thing for yourself because you love yourself. I'm willing to suffer for me so that I can be better in the future.

Speaker 1:

That brings to mind the word self-care that I get annoyed of because it's everywhere and I feel that the definition that we have out there of self-care is not truly what self-care should be. But you kind of defined it in the way that I like and do what's the bad way? The bad going out, going to the spa, it's, that's not self Getting a facial.

Speaker 1:

Right, it's not self-care. Self-care truly is about the internal work and your internal dialogue. Right, because you can go to the spa every day and come back and have a really negative tone towards yourself. Right, that's so the you know I'm I'm thinking. Also, you talked about being stagnant and and again, I'm just thinking of the dads that have reached out, and they, they are there. You are speaking directly to the dads that have reached out and they are there. You are speaking directly to the dads that I've spoken with that listen to this. So I just want to focus in a little bit more on that dad who, right now, just feels like they're stuck and it doesn't matter what they do. The videos and the stories that I watch with you, sometimes I giggle because you give that tough love sometimes.

Speaker 2:

And I see that I alternate yep.

Speaker 1:

Right, and I think of those dads that are kind of stuck in that and maybe people have tried but maybe they haven't received that tough love of getting into it and researchers are trying to figure out how to support dads. Should we be doing more of that tough love?

Speaker 2:

Some guys need it, some guys don't. So I alternate my approach because different people need different things. I know that there is a like I've got 100 guys in my group. Some of them love it when I yell at them and they want me to call them out Like we have high accountability in my group, which means, like you will be held accountable for your goals and the actions and the thing you promise, the things you promise us that you are going to do. We're going to hold you accountable and it may it might work better with men than women, I don't know, um, but some of these guys like it. When I like, I'll send them video message. I'll say, and I'll be swearing at them. I'll say you didn't post your workout this morning. Get your ass on here, post your workout. I know other guys aren't going to like that and it's going to do the opposite to them. So I have to alternate my approach. But I know I've got a large amount of people watching me. When I make one video, there's going to be a segment of the pie chart that is going to relate to it. Another segment is not going to, and I kind of alternate my way around that pie chart to try to reach everyone I can.

Speaker 2:

I know that for me, like, I made a post a couple of days ago and it was right after I got camping with my family. I was looking through my Google photos. I found a really old, sloppy picture of myself where I didn't look good and that just motivated me to make a post. Like if I could go back in time and tell this guy, who was feeling sorry for himself, what he needed to hear, what would I say? And I just like ranted at myself for a page and a half and it was brutal and I was digging into myself and you know, I was yelling at myself. I know that if someone at that time came to me and talked to me like that, that would have done the trick for me, like I would have.

Speaker 2:

I do not need someone to come pat me on the back and say you're going to be okay. I need someone to say quit lying to yourself. Look at the damage you're doing to yourself and your family. That's what I need to hear, because if you're in your 30s and 40s and you're a man and you've been lying to yourself for 10 years, you need an ice pick to come through your brain and break out like you on these calls I have with guys. You have to break them open, like they have been lying to themselves for so long. You have to reveal the damage they're doing to themselves and their family, because the reality is it's just numbers. Some guys will not make the change. At our men's retreat we have men in their 30s, 40s and 50s on stage crying in front of everyone about the damage their fathers did to them.

Speaker 1:

That was my next question.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and they're never healed because their fathers never made the change and their fully grown, successful men still have this image in themselves of this eight-year-old boy who's damaged. You have to understand that is the impact. So I'm okay getting harsh with guys if it's going to save that.

Speaker 1:

Right, I was going to tap into that a bit to find out if they were bringing up their childhood, because I know that when I talk with moms, often we have a certain voice in our head and that negative voice could be our mother or our father and it's hard to get out of that. So dads are bringing that up as well. From what you just said, they're bringing up their dads. Are they bringing up the dynamics between their parents as well?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and one of the things we did on our retreat was we did my workshop was called my Story, so every guy had to get up. We had about 20 guys there to get up on stage and talk about something that happened in your past that you considered negative, that defined you negatively, but you have to tell it why. It's actually the best thing that ever happened to you. So we had to redefine our stories and guy. It ended up taking a day and a half. I was supposed to take two hours.

Speaker 1:

So we just kept on going.

Speaker 2:

And I wasn't going to stop the guys as they were in tears and getting emotional. It's like every single guy was up there talking about who they are, their childhood, their family, the traumas they went through and they said the most personal things you can imagine and I never remember this one guy super successful guy owns a furniture company and I never remember this one guy super successful guy owns a furniture company, does well, in great shape. He's in his 40s. He told us a story about being six years old. I'm going to tear up talking about it. It makes me emotional.

Speaker 2:

His parents sent him away to this summer camp for three months and he came back and his parents threw away a special blanket and he was on stage crying about it. I was like man, there's little things you remember forever. And then there's also abuse and drug problems and guys are talking about their fathers who cheated on their mothers and whether it was just tense and cold in the house all day, all time. They remember that and it's the guys who grew up with anger issues in their house have anger issues right now with their kids. The guys who grew up with a bad relationship with their moms and their parents had a bad relationship. They have a bad relationship with their wife right now. They just took on all those burdens and problems, but they decided to do something about it and break the cycle.

Speaker 1:

Let's finish off our conversation around that the cycles right. It's not easy to break the cycles. It's first you have to notice it and realize that you have continued either the entire cycle or parts of the cycle, but it takes a lot of insight. You mentioned journaling before. Are the dads journaling as well? Are they starting therapy? Are they figuring this out on their own? What's the sort of guidance around that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, journaling is part of our mandatory program, so I help each guy develop a routine that helps build them over the next 12 months. So it's something you do every single day that will build you into a disciplined person, the person that you want to become.

Speaker 2:

But journaling is one of the non-negotiables that we have to do and we have different prompts and ways that we journal, but the most impactful thing that we do is just sharing, and I've had guys in my group who have been at therapy and they say that our group is upgraded. Therapy do is. I always start off with a lesson or stories from my life and then we go into the guys and we say, okay, what are you struggling with? What's the thing that's holding you back? What are you frustrated with? And each guy goes around and talks about the things that are keeping them stuck right now.

Speaker 2:

And for me it's like who can help you more? No, offense therapists. It's like this person, this random person over there who you talk to once every other week, or a guy who has the same job as you, same life situation, is married, has kids, going through exact same struggles, has been suffering for three years with what you're suffering with and has found a way out. Right, I'm going to read this thing that some professor said in the book two years ago. It's like no. And then we dig in and we talk about this and it's three times a week and the guys that are the most engaged and on all these Zoom calls, make massive, massive progress and sometimes just the pure fact of sharing it with other guys just lets that beach ball out of the water.

Speaker 1:

I do believe what you said is part of the future, in my opinion, of mental health care no-transcript.

Speaker 2:

You, if you feel like you're alone, then I would just do some research and start talking to other men, even your close friends. You could just say hey, man, I know we don't talk about this a lot, but this is what I'm going through. Like, are you going through the same thing? It's okay for not, so can you be okay having an uncomfortable conversation? Reach out to me, reach out to anybody, and like there's people willing to talk to you about these things and what you're going through is what every single guy goes through. So just, you got to know that you're not alone in that.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to put the links to your website and your Instagram, because I do want people to have an easy way to access you and reach out to you. I know that sometimes dads that I speak with feel alone because they might not have kept in touch with friends that they used to, and now that they're dads they've kind of given everything to their work and their family and there was no time left for friends. What do you say to that dad who feels like, well, I am actually really alone.

Speaker 2:

You don't have to be. That's a decision. There's a couple of different kinds of guys. There's a kind of guy who gets value or he buys into the narrative that going it alone like a crusader is somehow noble.

Speaker 2:

They think they need to become a monk in the woods and go on this journey alone. The only thing that does is it makes it take you longer to get to where you want to go. You don't get any bonus points If I end up at the end. The goal that you want to get to faster and I get to become the man the goal that you want to get to faster and I get to become the man I want to be faster, help my family faster, then I win. You don't get any bonus points for going there alone.

Speaker 2:

Also, it's selfish Because if you go on your journey of self-improvement alone, you don't get to bring anyone with you. There's other men who need your help and I know like at this point, when you're suffering, it's a selfish place to be because you're very self-obsessed. You're obsessed with how bad you feel and your failures and how down you are and what you need. It's all me, me, me. Some people need to help me. So it's a selfish place to be, but that's okay because that's where you are right now. The goal is to turn your selfish place into a selfless place, to where you can build yourself and you can help other people who are in that selfish place and build them up. So you need to build yourself into someone who is disciplined, who has routines, who can then give instead of take all the time. And if you are feeling alone, then it is up to you.

Speaker 2:

Like Marcus Aurelius, one of his biggest quotes. I'm reading the meditation he says like his philosophy is it's up to you, it's up to nobody else. But you, like. You have to do, you have to reach out. No one's going to come to your house, pull you by the hand. This is a tough love thing. No one's going to come to your house, pull you by the hand and message Chris Rodak or Dr Huffington like I need help. You need to do that and admit that you're in a suffering state, say I need help and guess what? We're willing to help you.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for saying that, and thank you for everything that you share, and I will continue following you. Even if I'm not a dad, I enjoy watching your content.

Speaker 2:

It's for everybody.

Speaker 1:

And it's inspiring. I've been doing push-ups with my kids.

Speaker 2:

Awesome, that's amazing.

Speaker 1:

I think it's funny, it's really cute. You continue inspiring and I know I've seen your wife now inspiring as well, and I hope you both continue to inspire everybody from around the world.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, this is great, thank you.